Go Back   UG Community @ Ultimate-Guitar.Com > Music > Musician Talk
User Name  
Password
Search:

Reply
Old 01-17-2013, 08:35 PM   #1
gabipe15
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Surprising *locrian*

Just playing beautiful morning, by machine head, and actually trying to play it on time, my teacher asked what scale do they use. I found that they actually use C# over a C root note, which i find surprising even the progression used on the, spme would call, locrian mode. Amazing and strange. Do you remember other songs using this kind of thing?


Rock on
gabipe15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2013, 08:55 PM   #2
rockingamer2
Larmarky Remark
 
rockingamer2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Rainy Northwest
Sounds like they are playing in a minor key and are using notes outside the minor scale. No modes involved.
__________________
^^The above is a Cryptic Metaphor^^

"To know the truth of history is to realize its ultimate myth and its inevitable ambiguity."

MUSIC THEORY LINK

SteamID: CarrionComfort
rockingamer2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2013, 04:14 AM   #3
Hail
kill both bass players
 
Hail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Dallas
kick your teacher in the face if you're over 12 years old and they prioritize scales over keys
Hail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2013, 05:05 AM   #4
steven seagull
not really a seagull
 
steven seagull's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Southport, UK
I think we're all agreed that in western music modes aren't used an awful lot and that boils down to simple common sense and practicality - because there's an easier and more flexible way of describing music. And even if you are using modes you're going to struggle to get what's generally regarded as a pleasing or desirable sound out of the Locrian - again in the context of western music as a whole.

Despite that it always amuses me how some people seem to view this as some kind of challenge or treasure hunt..."Well yes I'm moving frm Mixolydian through to Lydian", "Look! Look! I've found the Locrian...there it is!!"

It's like the music equivalent of UFOs, some people just seem so utterly desperate to see these mysterious "things" they grab on to the smallest, most intangible bit of "evidence" that points to their existence.
__________________
Actually called Mark!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TNfootballfan62
People with a duck for their avatar always give good advice.

...it's a seagull

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Mc
i wanna see a clip of a recto buying some groceries.


stuffmycatswatchontv.tumblr.com
steven seagull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2013, 05:17 AM   #5
:-D
hi
 
:-D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Earth
not only is that claim all kinds of no, if they were actually using a c# that wouldn't point to locrian either since it's not a b2

yolo
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archeo Avis
You just won.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockaholic97
Thanks! I wish everyone on Ultimate Guitar could be more like you!
:-D is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2013, 11:55 AM   #6
gabipe15
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Actually i have no problem understanding that this is not modal and that is simply C# major scale over C key (assuming that's the case in this song, otherwise imagine we're playing that).
What i don't understand is what the hell are modes supposed to mean then?
LOL!.
gabipe15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2013, 03:52 PM   #7
Mister A.J.
Ker-Blang-a-Woggle
 
Mister A.J.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: I can't remember
Quote:
Originally Posted by gabipe15
Actually i have no problem understanding that this is not modal and that is simply C# major scale over C key (assuming that's the case in this song, otherwise imagine we're playing that).
What i don't understand is what the hell are modes supposed to mean then?
LOL!.

Modes are just scales played off of different degrees of the major scale. (ie; an E Phrygian mode is playing from E to E using the notes in the diatonic C Major scale) They were used extensively in pre-Renaissance music, and kind of acted as their own 'keys' back then. Gregorian chants are also a good example on the usage of modes.

At least from my understanding, which is probably flawed at best.
__________________
Join the 7 String Legion!

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.


Official Approval
show
Mister A.J. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2013, 04:21 PM   #8
rockingamer2
Larmarky Remark
 
rockingamer2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Rainy Northwest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister A.J.
Modes are just scales played off of different degrees of the major scale. (ie; an E Phrygian mode is playing from E to E using the notes in the diatonic C Major scale) They were used extensively in pre-Renaissance music, and kind of acted as their own 'keys' back then. Gregorian chants are also a good example on the usage of modes.

At least from my understanding, which is probably flawed at best.

No, modes aren't just scales starting on different notes of the major scale.
__________________
^^The above is a Cryptic Metaphor^^

"To know the truth of history is to realize its ultimate myth and its inevitable ambiguity."

MUSIC THEORY LINK

SteamID: CarrionComfort
rockingamer2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2013, 04:27 PM   #9
Mister A.J.
Ker-Blang-a-Woggle
 
Mister A.J.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: I can't remember
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockingamer2
No, modes aren't just scales starting on different notes of the major scale.

Okay, please elaborate then. One cannot learn without knowing his mistakes, now can he?
__________________
Join the 7 String Legion!

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.


Official Approval
show
Mister A.J. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2013, 04:40 PM   #10
rockingamer2
Larmarky Remark
 
rockingamer2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Rainy Northwest
Modal music is an older system of music. It was pretty limiting, and so the tonal system developed and replaced it. Modes require a drone or a 2 or 3 chord vamp (short chord progression) to establish themselves and are very strict. Whether or not you are playing modes depends completely on your harmony, not what scale your melody is using.
The names of modes have been used by guitarists as a way of organizing the fretboard, but they have been confused as to what playing a mode really is. If you're in the key of C, playing the C major scale starting on E doesn't do anything. You're playing in the key of C regardless because that's what the harmony dictates. You can play any note you want and still be in the key of C. That's the flexibility of the tonal system.
Jazz also uses the names of modes as a way of organizing accidentals, similar to what guitarists do, but most of the time they aren't playing modes.
__________________
^^The above is a Cryptic Metaphor^^

"To know the truth of history is to realize its ultimate myth and its inevitable ambiguity."

MUSIC THEORY LINK

SteamID: CarrionComfort
rockingamer2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2013, 04:42 PM   #11
Mister A.J.
Ker-Blang-a-Woggle
 
Mister A.J.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: I can't remember
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockingamer2
Modal music is an older system of music. It was pretty limiting, and so the tonal system developed and replaced it. Modes require a drone or a 2 or 3 chord vamp (short chord progression) to establish themselves and are very strict. Whether or not you are playing modes depends completely on your harmony, not what scale your melody is using.
The names of modes have been used by guitarists as a way of organizing the fretboard, but they have been confused as to what playing a mode really is. If you're in the key of C, playing the C major scale starting on E doesn't do anything. You're playing in the key of C regardless because that's what the harmony dictates. You can play any note you want and still be in the key of C. That's the flexibility of the tonal system.
Jazz also uses the names of modes as a way of organizing accidentals, similar to what guitarists do, but most of the time they aren't playing modes.

That makes more sense now. Thank you kind sir!
__________________
Join the 7 String Legion!

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.


Official Approval
show
Mister A.J. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2013, 09:17 PM   #12
:-D
hi
 
:-D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Earth
Quote:
Originally Posted by gabipe15
Actually i have no problem understanding that this is not modal and that is simply C# major scale over C key

swing and a miss
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archeo Avis
You just won.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockaholic97
Thanks! I wish everyone on Ultimate Guitar could be more like you!
:-D is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2013, 06:24 PM   #13
Usernames sucks
Registered User
 
Usernames sucks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Norway
Sounds rather like phrygian with the b5 as a passing tone rather as a fifth. They are also playing the perfect 5th in the (power) chords. If you want something in locrian, hear army of me by bjórk (im pretty sure).

Also, for the modal talk, a song can indeed be in a mode. Take for example "so what" by miles davis. The melodies is in d dorian and the chords are Em11 to Dm11, the melodies is in d dorian, and it does resolve to d. So it is indeed in D dorian. It dosent resolve at all to C major or A minor.
__________________
Original fusion metal song:
http://m.soundcloud.com/kjartan-thorkildsen/euphoric
ORIGINAL PROGRESSIVE METAL SONG:
https://soundcloud.com/kjartan-thor...fe-in-purgatory

Last edited by Usernames sucks : 01-20-2013 at 06:36 PM.
Usernames sucks is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:06 AM.

Forum Archives / About / Terms of Use / Advertise / Contact / Ultimate-Guitar.Com © 2014
Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.