Morphogenesis26

I suck at theory, but I want to see if I can help. So, did you mean bar 89?

EDIT: I checked that one out some more and this is what I'm seeing:

The bass is doing a basic descending chromatic run from Eb to B and before it reaches the B Luke is playing an arpeggiated sequence of the same notes with the 1st and 3rd arpeggios being in the key of Eb Minor and the 2nd and 4th providing a more dissonant sound to accentuate the chromatic notes. When it reaches the B note on the bassLuke is playing an extended arpeggio sequence of a basic B Major triad and ending it with notes from the Eb and Db on the last triplets of each bar.

I don't know if that helps but it was really fun to analyze that.

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Hail

you say you think outside of scales and understand interval relationships. that encapsulates entirely chromatic movement - it moves between chords in a step-wise, uniform motion. it's that simple. to utilize it, you just do it when it makes sense with the context of the piece and fits the rhythmic mood you're trying to set.

you're overcomplicating things here - you should be able to tell that just by listening to it and thinking "why am i interested in this? what else is going on in this that makes these movements sound not shit?"




it's being able to actually utilize the basics that you're missing. if you just use a little common sense and the knowledge you claim you have, you can analyze basically anything without any problems. if there are any problems, you have the tools to isolate that discrepancy in your education and either figure it out for yourself or at the very least come here and ask.

asking, that is, once you've actually tried to use the tools already available to you - which, by and large, is your brain. music isn't that complicated when you break it into bite-sized chunks. literally, just hearing a certain sound or phrase in your head is enough to internalize it, and internalization is the key to honing your intuition, which is in turn the key to draw inspiration and manipulate it as you wish.

which is why i draw this into it being an artistic issue due to a poor focus on academia you should have down.

remember when liam was all obsessed with modes, and when we told him what modes actually were, instead of just making music he liked and breaking from that mold, he got caught up and tried to make legitimate church modes and recreate them on guitar? that's what you're doing right now. you're missing the big picture by focusing on minute goals to validate your prowess as if a few definitions are going to magically replace all the other shit you know and make it all click.


also realize that music isn't just a collection of cool sounding things, or a drag-and-drop of tools into the song structure. it's a living, breathing thing and needs to be treated as it goes. you say you've been writing and learning music constantly, but i find it hard to think that you're doing so actively or you wouldn't think "oh i'm in a rut"

you have a batbelt but have been trying to climb up a 10 story building instead of just batclawing your way up, then you complain that you don't have a tool that makes it easier.

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food1010

Hotel California is a i V bVII IV VI III iv V. It's all pretty straight-forward minor, except for the borrowed IV chord. There's chromatic motion down from the root (1 7 b7 6) for the first four chords. The V chord creates an expected resolution, but the bVII avoids that resolution and keeps the chromatic motion going, resolving to the IV chord.

The VI to III is sort of a juxtaposition of the i to V, except in G major instead of B minor. Of course, it's still diatonic so it's not really a key change. This leads nicely into the predominant (iv) to dominant (V) and back to the tonic.

Is this the kind of stuff you're looking for?

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Macabre_Turtle

I said that I don't generally think about a certain scale and I just consider what each interval will sound like instead, yes. For instance, when I'm in a minor key and I decide to throw in major 7th, I'm not thinking to myself "here I will use harmonic minor", I'm just thinking "a major 7th will sound like this." Or when I'm in a major key and I use an aug 4th, I'm not think "here I will use Lydian," I'm thinking "an aug 4th will sound like this." Not thinking in scales allows me to casually throw in these accidentals where ever I please. It's useful, but I really feel like you're overestimating how useful it is. That's still just the basics, and I'm not going to start understanding more complicated things like counterpoint or voice-leading just by listening to music that uses it. It's taken hundreds or thousands of years for humans to stumble upon this knowledge, and I'm not going to redevelop it on my own just by hearing it.



This far, I can analyze the progression and figure it out. I can work out the chord progression, and of course notice the chromatic bass notes. Past that, is where I guess I get lost. The idea of chords having very specific functions and goals like achieving a certain sort of resolution, rather than just 'my ear likes this.' I suppose that's an idea I'd like to understand better. Would 'chord functions' be something I'd want to look into to understand why that progression works? Or is this part of another element or terminology of theory that I'm missing out on?

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Hail

why do you think you need to know anything about counterpoint or voice leading?

counterpoint in particular is absolutely useless in a contemporary context unless you already have the basics you say you have under your thumb, and even then you'd come across those concepts absolutely organically. and voice leading is incredibly intuitive as long as, you know, you actually learn music the way you're saying you're doing. the way i see it, by the time you come across ideas like voice leading and modal interchange in a textbook, your ear should already be somewhat attuned to being able to utilize it even if you're not entirely sure what it is (because lord knows a 5 minute google sesh would kill you)

musical ideas come from learning music. if you come across contrapuntal music and have an affinity for it, by all means, learn contrapuntal music - but learn it because you enjoy the music, not because you think you need to learn every technique under the sun. otherwise you're going to put out a subpar product based on personal masturbation. which is fine if you're in a conservatory, but last i checked you're not a musical prodigy, so you need to adapt your ear and be able to function in regular, simple metal music before you go jumping the gun because you heard some cool words on the internet and wanna be the best music guy dude evurr



chord functions - tonic, subdominant, dominant being the only ones you need to focus on now - are completely tied up on intervals in relation to the tonic. the notes of one chord building towards tension or resolution on the tonic - it's literally just using common sense with stuff you already know.

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Macabre_Turtle

1. Because it's more musical knowledge. Why would I ever not want that?
2. Because I want to understand and work with styles that are more sophisticated (for lack of a better word) than the metal I'm generally working with, such as baroque music where counterpoint is generally heard.



What basics do you think I'm missing that are required to make counterpoint useful? Because I would gladly look into whatever that may be, thusly achieving the point of this thread.



I have come across contrapuntal music. I have had an affinity for it. I want to learn it because I enjoy it. Where did I ever imply otherwise? And why do you keep insulting me and accusing me of lacking some sort of basic skill? "Be able to function in regular, simple metal music." Why am I being accused of not doing that? You're not helping, you're just telling me 'don't bother learning more, because you're still a n00b.' I'm certainly not an expert, but I don't see what you think you're accomplishing me by telling me I shouldn't even aim to be.



See, this is the kind of answer I've been looking for. Just answering "chord functions" in response to my initial post would have been infinitely more useful. Outside of the far too common situation of people trying to understand modes before they can construct a chord, this is the kind of answer you should be trying to give people in this forum.

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Sean0913

The OP should listen to Hail, his advice is solid.

I think the bigger problem as I see it, Turtle is that you basically seem to come across as someone not willing to invest into their own development.

Best,

Sean

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Macabre_Turtle

By posting a thread asking for suggestions of what to develop?

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Sean0913

No, because, by your own admission, you have played for 7 years and haven't progressed in 4. And then you say:

"Courses cost money I don't have."

You haven't had money in 4 years? It just sounds to me that if you wanted something bad enough, you could have saved enough for most purposes at least at some point over the last 4 years. At 20 a month which is 5 dollars a week, you'd have 800+ right now saved. How many books cost that much to get where you're wanting to go?

It doesn't sound like you couldn't, it sounds more like you have a mindset that you wouldn't.

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Sean

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Macabre_Turtle

I've focused solely on writing for the last four years, which Hail repeatedly suggested I keep doing. Now I want to focus on learning more theory, and I'm being insulted for doing so.

And I didn't say books cost money I don't have. I said courses. I have thousands of dollars saved right now, and since those thousands of dollars still aren't nearly enough for me to pay for my next semester of education (and bills), no, I do not have the spare money for courses. Nor the time, since I have to take the required classes for my degree, and continue working to pay for those classes.

EDIT: For the record, my writing has improved greatly over those four years, and I feel that I've made great progress as a musician. I just feel that learning something new will give me another push forward, just like I took a great push forward years ago when I learned what I've been referring to as "the basics."

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Sean0913

That's understandable. Have you exhausted every lesson on Mike Dodge's website? It's free and would teach you more than you'll probably ever need.

I've been here since 2009, and we've had "courses" on here for that long, and we definitely don't cost thousands; hell we were and are cheaper than any private local instructor and we haven't raised our price in 4-5 years.

So not every "course" cost an arm and a leg. Berklee isn't the only place out there - Even Guitar Munky and several MT'rs here offered Skype one on one lessons at one point.

Anyways, I still think you have options. If you want to get a counterpoint book (I recommend Fux), you should know how to write music in a staff, and understand intervals, to follow the species, as they are taught.

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Sean

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Macabre_Turtle

This is the kind of answer I was looking for. I will look into Mike Dodge's website, and and your recommended book (a book, I have the time and money for) on counterpoints. And as added by previous posts, borrowed harmonies, and chord functions.

I'm sure those things will give me something I can work with, thank you.

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Jehannum

How about following the syllabus from a music degree with self-study?

cdgraves

I wouldn't jump right into counterpoint until you've got some experience with "normal" voice leading. First learn the conventions of music that's actually familiar to your ears, then go back and study the conceptual rudiments.

Doing counterpoint first makes sense conceptually, but you'll spend a lot of time doing stuff that bears no visible relation to the music you hear/play/read on a regular basis. With some functional harmony under your belt, counterpoint becomes a big Aha! moment.


Doesn't help much unless you've got your own ear training teacher, theory teacher, instrument teacher, and intense repertoire and performance curriculum.

You can, however, do sight-singing and transcription on your own, which helps your ears tremendously. It just takes some discipline and willingness to feel like you suck really bad at music for about 30 minutes a day.

Macabre_Turtle

I'm sure I could see a list of classes required for a music degree at any given school, but I don't think I can see an actual overview of what those classes go over without being in the classes? I know a few music majors. I suppose if and when I get stuck on the other suggestions I can ask a one of them to suggest a text book appropriate for my skill level.



I'm not actually totally sure what exactly 'voice leading' is, but if you insist it helps to learn it before counterpoint (is counterpoint a specific type of voice leading?) I'll take your word for it, thanks.

It's not something I practice regularly but my ear is trained well enough for transcribing, depending on the complexity of the piece. Developing the ability more would be great for being able to play/write down things that I hear in my head more easily, but since it's not really a part of theory so much as a skill, it's not something I want to focus on right this moment.

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cdgraves

Voice leading is the way you move smoothly between harmonic changes. It's a pretty broad concept, I'd look for a more thorough reference/workbook than an online forum. Counterpoint is a fundamental, strictly melodic method of part writing that pre-dates harmonic analysis. Stuff like Baroque and early Classical period music (ie Palestrina, Bach, Haydn, Mozart) was written largely contrapuntally. Even Beethoven has some wonderful counterpoint (7th symphony mvmt 2).

do some of the Dictation exercises on teoria.com to check your ear. Being able to hack out the chords/melody of a song isn't the same as having actual ear training. When your ears are in good shape you should be able to figure out at least the chords and basic harmonic structure (modulations, etc) of a tune without your instrument.

Theory IS important to ear training because it gives you an idea of what to expect. Taking a little bit of the mystery out of it can really help you learn to trust your ears.

food1010

Yes, absolutely.

A quick reference:

I iii and vi are considered "tonic" function.
ii and IV are considered "predominant" function.
V and viio are considered "dominant" function.

Dominants are defined by the 7th scale degree (leading tone) because it resolves up to the tonic by a half-step. Notice if you play a major scale all the way up and stop on the 7th, there's a lot of tension that is relieved if you go to the tonic. Same deal if you play the major scale descending and stop on the 2nd, although that's not as strong of a resolution. Also, if you extend the V to a 7th chord (V7), this adds the 4th scale degree which resolves down to the 3rd by a half-step. This adds more tension and release, but it's not as characteristic because it doesn't resolve to the tonic, it resolves to a chord tone of the tonic chord. The same could be said of the 6th scale degree (if you extended the viio to a seventh chord or the V to a ninth chord) resolving to the 5th, but now that's pushing it a bit.

Using this same logic when looking at predominants, we see that they don't have as much tension and release, but they do set up the dominants nicely. Looking at a ii chord (2 4 6) to a V (5 7 2), the 2 can stay stationary and the 4 and 6 can both move up a whole step. Whole step tensions aren't as strong as half-step tensions, so it creates a smooth transition without creating a sense of resolution. If you want to strengthen the predominant motion, you could make it a secondary dominant by making the ii chord major. This would give you 2 #4 6 and it would temporarily tonicize the V chord we label this a V/V, not a II).

Another thing to consider:
Dominant chords are characterized by the 7th scale degree (leading tone). You can't really have a dominant chord without the leading tone.
Tonic chords are characterized by the 3rd, NOT the tonic. I know it seems contradictory, because the tonic is the home tone, but if you think about it, a IV chord has the tonic in it and it's a predominant, not a tonic. The 3rd scale degree is what makes the tonic chord major.
Predominant chords could be defined by either the 4 or the 6 depending on how you look at it. 4 is probably more characteristic, considering the 6 can be a "tonic function" note.

This is kind of an introduction to voiceleading. Voiceleading is the study of how harmonic tones move, and how you make these motions smoother. Hopefully that gives you some stuff to look into.

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