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Old 03-27-2013, 04:11 PM   #2761
Lemoninfluence
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zl1288
1. Laws similar to this already exist in the US, although the level of regulation can vary state to state. For instance; to purchase a handgun in Connecticut, you have to obtain a pistol permit. This requires an individual to participate in a safety course, including live fire exercises, and go through extensive background checks. The permit takes around 90 days to obtain and must be renewed every 5 years. In some states you don't need a permit to purchase a handgun. Assualt weapons are already highly regulated on the federal level.


The fact that there's a different regime in each state undermines the effectiveness of the stricter ones.

Although I wonder how strict those background checks can be with the framework you have. Not having universal health care it doesn't seem likely to me that you'd see a doctor regularly enough to have an effective assessment of your mental health.

Also, this is just my completely unsupported opinion, but it seems like US society is a perfect breeding ground for mental health issues. You have to pay for your own healthcare, you have relatively few worker rights and there seems to be an ingrained disdain for anything resembling a social safety net. So if anything goes wrong, it all goes wrong.

Quote:
2. What would a "genuine use" for a firearm be, and how would an individual prove it?


hunting, pest control, participation in sports.

And supporting evidence could be a hunting license and/or permission from the landowner to hunt on their land, it could be a letter from a gun club attesting to your participation in a particular form of shooting for sport, it could be photographic evidence of a pest problem etc.

Quote:
3. I agree with you, but at the same time, there is a limit to what can be accomplished through the regulation of firearms. You mention a handgun ban in your post, which in my opinion would be an inneffective form of regulation in the US.

Gun related suicides account for over 50% of total gun related deaths in the US. A handgun ban may very well reduce the number of suicides commited by firearms, but what effect would it have on the total number of suicides? Data from Australia and the UK seem to indicate that it would little to no effect, although it is difficult to say given that there are other factors at play. Same goes for gun related homicides, will banning handguns have any significant effect on the overall homicide rate? Looking at the chart below, it's clear that the US has a much higher homicide rate than the UK. However, the decline in the US homicide rate is much greater than the decline in the UK homicide rate (even with the introduction of stricter gun laws). It seems to me that gun control/bans may not have as large of an effect on the homicide rate as some may think. I would argue that other factors, such as gang violence, have a much greater effect on homicide rates.


I don't think anybody has suggested that we strictly regulate guns and then leave it at that. Gang violence and drug crime are issues that should be tackled alongside the widespread availability of firearms. While they're almost definitely bigger issues there is still the issue of mass killings such as the one at Sandy Hook. And although his mental health was the immediate cause of that incident the availability of guns increased the damage he was able to inflict. It's that potential harm I'd like to minimise by increasing regulation on gun ownership.
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Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
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Old 03-27-2013, 05:36 PM   #2762
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Seems as if this thread has become nothing but a bunch of nationalists breaking each others balls.
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Old 03-28-2013, 02:15 AM   #2763
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermintide
So what you guys are telling me is this:

If you threaten/use a non lethal defensive weapon on a criminal, you will be in a more dangerous situation, possibly aggravating the criminal to the point of shooting you.

However if he sees you pulling out a gun... It's not going to do exactly the same thing?


Nah, I'm aware that the US in general is not as crazy gun-obsessed as popular perceptions would like the rest of the world to believe. I just find this weird fantasy that the people who do advocate guns as self defence tools a little illogical.

When I was staying over there in Colorado (Fun fact: My girlfriend's brother was in the theatre in Aurora Shame he didn't get hit, but oh well) one of the girls in the apartment was telling me about how much more POWERFUL and SECURE she feels keeping a gun in her car and getting her concealed carry license.

I couldn't help but thinking... This girl has issues, that gun is never going to save her life, no matter how much practice she gets at the range. It's like she has this fantasy that any potential thug would actually give her time to pull a weapon and defend herself, as opposed to just pistol whipping her and taking her handbag purse while she's unconscious.



Eh? How does that work?

HUNTING with them is illegal here, and crossbow ranges only let you use up to 95lb maximum, so there's really no purpose for me owning one this powerful, yet I can

I think a lot of this your saying is your own perception. There are 1000's of legit self defense by firearm cases every year. It's better to have a firearm for protection.
You say this girl has issues but you stated to bad her brother didn't get hit in Aurora. That's good reason and a responsible choice for you to not have a firearm.
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Old 03-28-2013, 02:22 AM   #2764
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Originally Posted by rockingamer2
That's cuz only pro-gun nutjobs are given any attention. Considering how many Americans own a gun, that would be impossible.

and most hardened criminals are anti gun,gun owners.
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Old 03-28-2013, 12:33 PM   #2765
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemoninfluence
The fact that there's a different regime in each state undermines the effectiveness of the stricter ones.

I agree, there definitely needs to be more consistent regulation from state to state. I would personally like to see a permit/license system implemented for all firearms. IMO, an individual who wishes to purchase a firearm should be required to complete a gun safety course (including live fire exercises). There are a lot of responsible gun owners, but I have seen many irresponsible owners as well. I was lucky enough to have a father and uncles who taught me the safe way to handle and store firearms from a very young age, but not everyone is so lucky.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemoninfluence
Although I wonder how strict those background checks can be with the framework you have. Not having universal health care it doesn't seem likely to me that you'd see a doctor regularly enough to have an effective assessment of your mental health.

That's a huge issue, and one many overlook. The existing gun laws are effective in theory, but the framework they are based on is flawed. At a minimum, A background check using the NICS database is required for the purchase of any firearm (I'll ignore the gunshow/secondary market loophole for now). The problem with this system is that the NICS database is basically a patchwork of information pieced together from both state and federal records. Audits have shown that certain areas of the database are lacking information, especially when it comes to mental health records. Both the States and the Federal government need to devise a more effective way to track and store these records.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemoninfluence
Also, this is just my completely unsupported opinion, but it seems like US society is a perfect breeding ground for mental health issues. You have to pay for your own healthcare, you have relatively few worker rights and there seems to be an ingrained disdain for anything resembling a social safety net. So if anything goes wrong, it all goes wrong.

The bolded comment is a bit extreme. Although the loudest voices may give that impression, the reality is much different.

The mental health situation in the US is worrisome, although not really for the reasons you listed. The bigger issue is that there are a number of large barriers to care. Cost of treatment is a large issue, and as you noted, the way in which our current health care system is structured certainly doesnt help. Many insurance policies have significant limitations regarding the treatment of mental health issues, resulting in high out of pocket costs. As you can see below, the costs can be prohibitive.


Another barrier is created by the attitudes towards mental illness. There is a social stigma attached to mental health issues, which causes many to forego treatment alltogether. Lastly, the way in which we hande the treatment/care of those with more severe mental illnesses is pretty f'ed up. Due to the arrival of psychotropic medications and deinstitutionalization, the US has shifted away from long term inpatient facilities. Psychotropic drugs can be extremely effective in managing mental illnesses, but only if they are taken consistently. We don't have many (if any) resources to check up on individuals. Many end up in a vicous cycle, rotating between periods of normalcy, short term inpatient facilities, and jail. We also lack effective ways to report those who we suspect are mentally ill. The entire system needs to be overhauled, but due to the cost and the lack of political advantages, that will be difficult

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemoninfluence
hunting, pest control, participation in sports.

And supporting evidence could be a hunting license and/or permission from the landowner to hunt on their land, it could be a letter from a gun club attesting to your participation in a particular form of shooting for sport, it could be photographic evidence of a pest problem etc.

I don't really agree with this, and I don't think that there is anyway this would fly in the US. I'll just chalk it up to a difference in culture

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemoninfluence
I don't think anybody has suggested that we strictly regulate guns and then leave it at that. Gang violence and drug crime are issues that should be tackled alongside the widespread availability of firearms. While they're almost definitely bigger issues there is still the issue of mass killings such as the one at Sandy Hook. And although his mental health was the immediate cause of that incident the availability of guns increased the damage he was able to inflict. It's that potential harm I'd like to minimise by increasing regulation on gun ownership.

I understand that reaction to mass killings, and toyed with the idea of limiting the availability of certain guns myself. However, I think the issue of mass killings should not be the focus of gun control reform. To me, the main focus of gun control reform should be promoting responsible ownership and limiting the flow of firearms to criminals (regulation of the secondary market is a very important piece of this imo). I think that we are in agreement that mental health is the main issue behind mass killings in the US. An outright ban or severe restriction of certain types of firearms seems like an overreaction, considering the percentage of weapons that are used in mass killings is extremely miniscule. I understand the desire to limit the potential harm, and i'm not trying to minimize the issue of mass killings. I just feel that it's a problem that needs to be fixed at it's source.

btw, I realize that nothing I say is going to drastically change your viewpoints, just as nothing you say will drastically change mine. Still interesting to see others point of view though.
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Old 03-30-2013, 01:42 AM   #2766
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I do think a class of some sort when buying a firearm for the first time or something should be required, it would probably drastically reduce those with mental health issues from getting guns. The instructors of the course and those around are actually probably likely to notice if someone seems a little 'off' and shouldn't be using a firearm.

As to the guns being pulled, I remember a Black Friday story from last year. I don't remember exactly where at or anything, but it was at a Sears I think.

Being Black Friday, the lines were humungous, even at Sears. A man had been waiting for a long time for whatever he wanted. Another man cuts in front of everybody, including the first man in front, who tells him to get out of line. They both start yelling, and the guy that cut everybody punched the dude in the face that had been in line. After being punched, the man pulled out his handgun, but never fired, cocked it, or took the safety off. The simple presence of the gun made the other guy run and hide behind a refrigerator.

The man that cut in line was arrested and possibly charged with assault, I don't remember, and the man with the gun had no punishment whatsoever. He was attacked and simply pulled out his firearm, which he was licensed to carry, and didn't even have to fire it. He was in his full rights to fire, especially if he didn't aim to kill, but being a responsible gun owner (like most with CC permits), he recognized it was not necessary.

Simply by having it he prevented a larger escalation, and if you really need me to I may be able to find the news story.

The genuine use thing is a load of crap, though. It's like what's been mentioned with cars. Gearheads want crazy stuff for no reason other than they like it, gun owners should have the same right. Almost all gun owners are actually responsible people and don't just toy with them or act like they aren't dangerous.

Mental health is also a big issue, and it may be a good idea to have some sort of universal healthcare system. That would be a much more effective step than banning anything.

Also, to whomever responded to me explaining my assault rifle stuff a few pages back (Lemoninfluence, maybe?), I was only answering his question, not arguing that we haven't passed by it already. I was also not arguing that it was part of the current ban that won't pass.
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Old 04-26-2013, 01:08 PM   #2767
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They were pretty great
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Old 04-26-2013, 02:35 PM   #2768
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Originally Posted by chookiecookie
Seems as if this thread has become nothing but a bunch of nationalists breaking each others balls.


"become"? Has it ever been anything else? Its 5 Piers Morgans vs a steady stream of adolescent americans.
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Old 04-28-2013, 08:16 PM   #2769
Lemoninfluence
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Pro-gun US residents (or any us resident who knows the answer) what are the laws like for taking guns on internal flights?
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Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
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Old 04-28-2013, 08:20 PM   #2770
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Originally Posted by Lemoninfluence
Pro-gun US residents (or any us resident who knows the answer) what are the laws like for taking guns on internal flights?


Here are some:



Declare to the Delta representative that you are checking a firearm.

Declare the existence of a firearm to security personnel if there's a security checkpoint before the Delta counter.

All firearms must be declared by the passenger to a Delta representative at the main ticket counter.

Present firearm(s) unloaded and sign a "Firearms Unloaded" declaration.

Firearms must be packed in a locked manufacturer's hard-sided container specifically designed for the firearm, a locked hard–sided gun case or a locked hard-sided piece of luggage. Handguns may be packed in a locked hard-sided gun case, and then packed inside an unlocked soft-sided piece of luggage. However, a Conditional Acceptance Tag must be used in this case.

Maintain entry permits in your possession for the country or countries of destination or transit.

Ensure small arms ammunition is packed in the manufacturer's original package or securely packed in fiber, wood, plastic or metal boxes and provide separation for cartridges.

You are responsible for knowledge of and compliance with all Federal, State or local laws regarding the possession and transportation of firearms. For more information about this regulation you can visit the TSA website.

If you are transporting a firearm to the United Kingdom, a permit from the United Kingdom is specifically required. You must contact the United Kingdom for more information about securing this permit.

Ammunition in excess of 11 lbs. per passenger or that contains potential projectiles is not allowed.
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Old 04-28-2013, 08:21 PM   #2771
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Originally Posted by Lemoninfluence
Pro-gun US residents (or any us resident who knows the answer) what are the laws like for taking guns on internal flights?


Probably like any other weapon.
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Old 04-28-2013, 08:26 PM   #2772
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thanks. I thought there might have been a separate procedure for internal flights, but I suppose it's simpler for security personnel if the same boxes need to be ticked no matter the destination.
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Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
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