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Old 02-06-2013, 11:53 AM   #21
Hail
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valix

Why I thought I needed to progress from one mode to another: I believe playing in one mode or scale even is too difficult for someone like me. Satriani can do it, but he's .. yeah Satriani :p


satriani really doesn't know a whole lot about theory.

you don't have to play within a scale - you just have to play within the key, which you kinda have to try to not make tonal music intuitively. you can play any of the 12 notes you like at any given time - how it sounds is based on how each note, each movement, each rhythm, each timbre plays a role between the melody and the harmony.

this is why we emphasize an ability to internalize music (through learning by ear). scales are just presets of notes that will inherently sound "okay" over any given backdrop, but unless you're in a situation where your hands have to move faster than you can think (which should never be the case) you should base your choice of notes on intuition like everything else.

you don't memorize every combination of accents, do you? or every ensemble make-up? your rhythm and tone come from instinct and from constantly listening. your note choice should be no different - and should honestly be less important. you could play all the "wrong" notes over a chord and make it sound good with interesting rhythm and with a musical intent.

learning music from the ground up involves learning music. scales aren't music - they're sequences of numbers that attribute music to memory. i suggest, outside of learning your triads, dominant/subdominant/tonic, and similar fundamental basics, you don't even learn music theory until/unless you have a personal drive to learn more about it.

instead, you should focus on learning music - in context. theory gives you some tools to understand what's happening in the music, just like a cookbook will give you basic ideas of what to look for in a recipe, but if you don't have the palate to appreciate what you want done, you're just masturbating.

if you've never eaten risotto before, why in god's name would you try to prepare it for someone? if you haven't sat and learned music rather than sequences out of proper context and cadence, no matter how cleanly you play, or how cool you'll sound using big words to describe it, you're never going to be able to produce any sort of authentic expression of yourself - because there will be no vehicle to express it.

without your ear being the guide in everything you produce, you have no artistic input in the matter. you may as well just join a symphony and play verbatim - but something tells me you don't have that kind of discipline, either.

don't forget that music is an artform. to not appreciate the creative process, to attribute it to a bunch of big words you read on the internet (out of context), it's a personal insult to people whose appetite for music has a profound effect on their lives and potential careers, at least in my eyes.
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Old 02-06-2013, 12:14 PM   #22
mdc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hail
if you've never eaten risotto before, why in god's name would you try to prepare it for someone?

Lol I cooked this literally 10 minutes ago, for myself. Fucking delicious. Like a true pig, I didn't bother plating up, straight outta the pan, mate.
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Old 02-06-2013, 01:20 PM   #23
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I also just had risotto lol. Made a twist and used a fair bit of oat in it. Just as good and much healthier!


Also just realized I'm in Hail's sig, which is cool, except the paradox that I can never be truly certain that it's not because he's making fun of me
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The Byzantine scale was useful until the Ottoman scale came around and totally annihilated it.
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Old 02-06-2013, 01:23 PM   #24
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it's an unprecedented introduction of a serious sig from someone i can't remember if i like or not

also
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Old 02-06-2013, 01:59 PM   #25
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Old 02-06-2013, 02:17 PM   #26
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The Byzantine scale was useful until the Ottoman scale came around and totally annihilated it.
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Old 02-06-2013, 03:03 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valix
If I understand things correctly, do I continue in my song with the next rhytm part and move on to E Locrian and abandon E Aeolian? And when progressing from Aeolian to Locrian to first move up to the root note (as a transition between the two modes) ?

I could really use some input as on how to procede with this. It would be much appreciated.


So you've got a lick in E minor, and you're not sure how to continue it.

That's a fine songwriting problem. It's a normal one. Don't muck it up by talking about modes, and ignore all the chatter about modes, here and elsewhere.

You have an e minor lick, and you don't know what to do next.

So here's what you do:

You play the lick. You listen to it. You play it again. You listen to it. You play it again ...

... and you listen to the silence after it. What you're listening for is the sound you want to hear next.

When you hear that sound in your head - and not before - try to find it on your guitar.

The better your ear is, the easier this usually goes, so develop your ear. But don't think about scales or keys or modes. Just think about that sound you want to hear next.
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Old 02-06-2013, 03:36 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotspurJr

... and you listen to the silence after it. What you're listening for is the sound you want to hear next.

When you hear that sound in your head - and not before - try to find it on your guitar.

The better your ear is, the easier this usually goes, so develop your ear. But don't think about scales or keys or modes. Just think about that sound you want to hear next.

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Old 02-06-2013, 07:05 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Hail
you could play all the "wrong" notes over a chord and make it sound good with interesting rhythm and with a musical intent.


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Old 02-07-2013, 12:12 AM   #30
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You're problem isn't that you dont know enough scales or theory. You're problem is that you haven't internalized it. In terms of written theory, you have far more than you need to write a good blues tune. You just aren't letting your ear do the work.

The best think you can do is to transcribe as much blues music as you can. You will very quickly see how simple it really is. I7 IV7 V7 with a blues scale will get you very far if you know how to use it. What you learn by transcribing is articulation, dynamics, phrasing, tone, etc. All of these elements are things that should be intuitive, meaning you don't consciously think about them. You should just be able to hear an idea in your head and let it flow.
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Old 02-07-2013, 06:31 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by mdc
I'm interested to know how much blues music you have in your collection?


A whole wall-full of CDs. One shelf for each mode.
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Old 02-07-2013, 07:18 AM   #32
Hail
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHydra


there's actually a better part of the DVD that's not on youtube that i was considering linking or uploading but i couldn't find it and i'm lazy

where he actually plays over a simple progression using almost exclusively the 5 "out" notes, using interesting phrasing and focusing on the rhythm, then plays perfectly diatonically but with lackluster phrasing, &c.
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Old 02-07-2013, 07:55 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Hail
there's actually a better part of the DVD that's not on youtube that i was considering linking or uploading but i couldn't find it and i'm lazy

where he actually plays over a simple progression using almost exclusively the 5 "out" notes, using interesting phrasing and focusing on the rhythm, then plays perfectly diatonically but with lackluster phrasing, &c.

I've pieced together a lot of the DVD on Youtube but I still haven't seen all of it. I have seen him demonstrate that concept in a different workshop video though.

For extra challenge mode, try it on a cheap shitty keyboard with no dynamics (or a harpsichord, if you happen to have one laying around). Just you, the notes, and their lengths. It really makes you appreciate having dynamics when they're no longer available.

Last edited by TheHydra : 02-07-2013 at 07:57 AM.
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Old 02-07-2013, 08:02 AM   #34
Hail
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i used to plug that DVD a lot, definitely worth a watch

but since i talked to scott fernandez (who's good friends with overlord evan brewer) he said anthony wellington (and wooten, but not as bad) is a total douche, and that the two of them reject anybody who doesn't accept their musical philosophy. it's a real shame, it kinda makes the DVD hard to watch, but it hits a lot of great points on the head.

forreal though just torrent buy the DVD set and give yourself 3 or 4 hours (it's as long as those old VHS pornos) to sit through it. very important things covered in the realm of musicality rather than bassmanship

Last edited by Hail : 02-07-2013 at 08:03 AM.
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Old 02-07-2013, 08:15 AM   #35
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Damn, the full thing's 3-4 hours long? Now I'm really interested. Their stuff about timing was enlightening enough on its own (aside from the poor choice of wording on "modes of rhythm", though I don't exactly fault them for not knowing those were already an entirely different thing). I'm definitely gonna legally purchase from a legitimate establishment as soon as I can.

Also: sucks to hear that about Victor. I like his solo stuff, but I can't say I've listened to the Flecktones very much. Him and Anthony seemed like nice enough guys.

Last edited by TheHydra : 02-07-2013 at 08:16 AM.
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Old 02-07-2013, 01:54 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by TheHydra
Damn, the full thing's 3-4 hours long? .


Anybody know the name of the full DVD?
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Old 02-07-2013, 02:33 PM   #37
Hail
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Originally Posted by HotspurJr
Anybody know the name of the full DVD?


http://www.amazon.com/Victor-Wooten...p/dp/B001DPC4I2
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Old 02-07-2013, 07:25 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Valix
I've read a lot about some theory, but there are some items that confuse me still, most recently song structure.


A basic and effective way to structure a song is to use three separate sections that are each 8 bars in length. So you would have Section A, Section B, and Section C, each one consisting of an 8 bar chord progression. Then you can label them as the verse, chorus, and bridge and start putting them together. For example, Section A might be your verse, B would be the chorus, and C would be the bridge. Then you can organize your song like this:

A, A, B, A, B, C, B

or this:

A, A, B, C, A, A, B, C

Or any other way that you like. You can also add a brief intro or outro, but generally you want to keep it to 4 bars or less.

This is a very basic way to structure a song, but it's also very common because it works so well. You can and should deviate from this pattern, but if you're having trouble with song structuring, relying on the basics is a good way to get started.

If you're trying to write blues music, you should look into the 12 bar blues for a starting point.
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