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Old 02-26-2013, 11:19 PM   #1
4FunandProphet
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New extension cab... OR...Doing the speaker shuffle...

So I've been kicking around the idea of purchasing a closed back extension cabinet for my Classic 50 to experiment with a different speaker arrangement, and perhaps tighten up the low end while playing heavier music. In my quest I've looked at several brands, both new and used options, and finally settled on Avatar. Their G212 Premiere seems to fit the budget and can be customized to look very similar to my C50 (Tweed and Oxblood). After I picked the cab I started looking at the speaker options that Avatar offers and comparing them to the speakers I have installed in my amp. About six years ago I replaced the factory C50 speakers with a pair of Wizards from Eminence. I had done my homework and thought I knew what I was buying, though it turns out that I missed one minor detail...

... that Eminence doesn't recommend them for use in an open back (or vented) cab, which my Peavey has. I've always enjoyed their tone and thought they were a great upgrade for the stock units, but I now wonder how much better they could sound when used as Emi intended.

That brings me to my question (about damned time, right?): My current speakers are for a closed back cab, and since I want to get a closed back cab, they are the natural choice. What, then, do I put in my amp? Avatar offers several options in their loaded cabs, and the price difference between their bare cab and loaded cab is much less than what I would spend buying a pair of nearly any of the speakers they list. So my options are as follows:

Celestion: Vintage 30s, G12H30s, G12T75s, Greenbacks, Classic Lead 80s, Hellatone 30s, Hellatone 60s and G12K100s

Eminence: Governors, Wizards, Private Jacks, Swamp Thangs

I'm leaning toward the Governors as I like Eminence and the SPL, frequency response, and reviews I've read are in line with what I need. My understanding is that you want a very close SPL when mixing different types of speakers to prevent one drowning out the other, but since I have no experience with mixing speakers, I have no idea how much of a mismatch is acceptable. I'd love any information of experience you guys can give me. Thanks!
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:27 PM   #2
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Eminence canibis Rex
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:27 PM   #3
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well, first off, there are no rules. do you like the sound of your wizards now?

secondly, yeah, i have that cab. its fantastic for the money. and the celestion prices they offer almost cant be beat considering they come in it i.e. - 1 order, so less shipping costs etc in the total bottom line.

i bought 2 WGS speakers which came recommended, the reaper and the veteran 30, which are a celestion g12h30 and v30 clones....a classic combo. they were also recommended for all forms of music, even heavier styles. i have to say they do quite well. it really is a good pairing, dont think you can go wrong.

yes, you want to get 2 speakers relatively the sale SPL, but close is good. mine is off by 1 SPL. fairly insignificant. i also tilt mine vertical, so obviously the top speaker is going to be heard best...it is also the loudest by 1 SPL.

this poses a slight issue seeing as the wizard is 103....just about as hi or higher than any speaker on the market. its going to overpower pretty much anything.
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:39 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbgnarly
Eminence canibis Rex


If Avatar offered them I would certainly consider them, but I'm trying to confine myself to their offerings for cost reasons. Also, the SPL difference is almost 2dB compared to the Wizards, so the mismatch would be a bit much.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ikey_
well, first off, there are no rules. do you like the sound of your wizards now?

secondly, yeah, i have that cab. its fantastic for the money. and the celestion prices they offer almost cant be beat considering they come in it i.e. - 1 order, so less shipping costs etc in the total bottom line.

i bought 2 WGS speakers which came recommended, the reaper and the veteran 30, which are a celestion g12h30 and v30 clones....a classic combo. they were also recommended for all forms of music, even heavier styles. i have to say they do quite well. it really is a good pairing, dont think you can go wrong.

yes, you want to get 2 speakers relatively the sale SPL, but close is good. mine is off by 1 SPL. fairly insignificant. i also tilt mine vertical, so obviously the top speaker is going to be heard best...it is also the loudest by 1 SPL.

this poses a slight issue seeing as the wizard is 103....just about as hi or higher than any speaker on the market. its going to overpower pretty much anything.


I know what you mean about the rules. I actually have recommended them to others with similar amps and was told that they weren't for open back cabs. If it sounds good, it is good, right?

Avatar must be passing along a volume discount of some kind, that's the only way I could see them making money on that deal.

As far as SPL goes, the Governor is within 0.6dB of the Wizard, so it shouldn't be obvious that there is a difference, though I'm sure it would be noticeable at higher volumes.
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Old 02-27-2013, 09:05 AM   #5
ikey_
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true - eminence does have high SPL across teh board. 0.6 is fairly insignificant. at that point, a speaker with a bump in midrange like a v30 will stand out more. tons of factors.

avatar - of course they do. i am not sure what the margin is on speakers, but i would have to imagine its really high. they buy BULK and sell bulk. if they can get you for another 100+ a cab they are making money.

besides tehy need to compete with companies like WGS and eminence offering similar products for 70 range opposed to 140.

_______________

side note - if you wanted a vertical 2x12, all you gotta do is ask, they will put the logos and bottom rubber feet on the end for you (they cant move the handles, too much of a design change). they even gave me extra rubber feet if i wanted to make it horizontal again free!

the avatar and WGS guys are awesome.
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Old 02-27-2013, 01:30 PM   #6
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what type of tone are you after? do you want to go for a totally different tone or a variation on the wizard theme?

also i think eminence recommends the wizards in closed back cabs as they can have cone cry (something like that) in open-backed cabs.
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Old 02-27-2013, 04:13 PM   #7
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The tone I'm after is my amp through a closed back cab. I've had the opportunity to play through several and love how the highs seem more crisp, the lows are tighter, and the whole amp seems more focused. It sounds great clean and pretty good on the drive channel, just trying to recreate what I've done before, and want speakers for the amp itself that will sound good all around ans compliment the tone of the closed back setup.
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Old 02-27-2013, 04:59 PM   #8
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If you want to go towards a closed-back sound with an open-backed combo, I think you have to first accept that you may get closer but will never really get there completely. That said, there are some very tight-bottom speakers around. An old EVM 12L,* Altec, Gauss, or JBL ceramic will do an incredible job of it. There's a place in California called Jammin' Jersey's that has a wild selection of top-shelf vintage speakers in minty condition but they start at $200 plus about $30 shipping for each one. The Altecs run more.

Have you considered having the amp put into a head cabinet and going with all close-backed speaker bottoms?

* I don't know what the new ones sound like compared to the old originals. Are they the same?
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Old 02-27-2013, 05:55 PM   #9
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I'm not really trying to get the combo itself to sound like a closed back setup; that's why I want to get a closed back extension cabinet. The chassis for the C50 combo is already setup with 1/4" jacks for speaker output, so I could have one or both sets running with little trouble. I'm just trying to decide which of the listed speakers would sound best in an open back cabinet when used with my Wizards in a closed back cabinet.
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Old 02-28-2013, 11:43 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4FunandProphet
The tone I'm after is my amp through a closed back cab. I've had the opportunity to play through several and love how the highs seem more crisp, the lows are tighter, and the whole amp seems more focused. It sounds great clean and pretty good on the drive channel, just trying to recreate what I've done before, and want speakers for the amp itself that will sound good all around ans compliment the tone of the closed back setup.


when you say "complement", are you planning on using the closed-back cab and the speakers in your cab together?

EDIT: you'd also want to check that you can do what you're trying to do. some amps disconnect the internal speakers when you have another speaker cabinet plugged into the extension jack.

the other thing is, it'd be worth thinking hard about whether you actually want to do this.

Will a closed-back cabinet sound good in combination with your open-backed combo? No reason why it won't, necessarily, but no reason why it will, either. And if it doesn't, you could end up with two sets of speakers which you don't really like alone, as you picked them to work well together.

another possible problem is, trying to make the two sets of speakers work well together pretty much precludes mixing and matching speakers in each individual cabinet (as having too many different speakers will likely just end up sounding like a mess). Now, mixing speakers isn't the be-all, end-all, and some people don't like to do it, which is absolutely fair enough. But if you do, not having that option because you occasionally want to use your new closed-back cab with your combo's speakers might not be the best plan.

Finally, trying to get speakers which combine well means that odds are you'll end up with quite similar-sounding speakers. For example, a greenback combines well with a g12h30, and while they do sound quite different, they both sound pretty british and it's clear they're more or less coming from the same place. For the most difference in tone, treating the closed back cabinet and open-backed combo as two separate, distinct entities might be a better idea. that way you can get, say, british-voiced speakers for the closed-back cab and american-voiced speakers for the combo. If you get them in the same impedance you can still combine them for a laugh (if your combo lets you do that, as i said earlier), but at least you'll have two different speaker combos which should sound good alone (which is normally the most important thing) and if they sound good together then that's a bonus (occasionally I've heard of mixes of british- and american-voiced speakers which sound good together, so it's not impossible).

Assuming you want such a difference of tone and like mixing and matching speakers, of course.
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Old 03-01-2013, 08:47 AM   #11
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Quote:
I'm not really trying to get the combo itself to sound like a closed back setup.... I'm just trying to decide which of the listed speakers would sound best in an open back cabinet when used with my Wizards in a closed back cabinet.
Oh.... In that case, welcome to the land of mixing-and-matching-until-you-like-what-you-hear! I used to live there for about two years. It's not a bad place to be but it can be somewhat frustrating at times. Also, the cost of living can be a bit high.
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Remove V1 & V6. Put the 12AX7 from V1 into V6 and leave V1 empty. Try the vibrato channel.

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Old 03-01-2013, 12:15 PM   #12
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^ yeah

Plus, aside from the nice feeling of knowing you've tried almost everything (and that you now know what you like), you can end up with a lot of slight variations on the same theme. and speakers aren't the easiest thing to store, either.
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:39 PM   #13
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Ah, so it seems the search for "that" speaker combo is as elusive as the search for the right pickups. Well, as long as each set of speakers sound good on their own I'll be satisfied. Together will just have to be lagniappe.

Out of curiosity, which of the Celestions are made in China these days?
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:49 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4FunandProphet
Ah, so it seems the search for "that" speaker combo is as elusive as the search for the right pickups. Well, as long as each set of speakers sound good on their own I'll be satisfied. Together will just have to be lagniappe.

Out of curiosity, which of the Celestions are made in China these days?

All but the heritage series.

The Mesa V30 is still made in the UK and is only $125

I believe the Marshall V30's are made in the UK also
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Old 03-02-2013, 01:10 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4FunandProphet
Ah, so it seems the search for "that" speaker combo is as elusive as the search for the right pickups. Well, as long as each set of speakers sound good on their own I'll be satisfied. Together will just have to be lagniappe.

Out of curiosity, which of the Celestions are made in China these days?


yeah it's pretty much directly analogous to pickups in that only the couple of really famous speakers are easily available to try and with most other speakers you're having to rely on manufacturers' and players' recommendations and hope they're right Also the fact that you don't know exactly how they'll sound until you've tried them in your cabinet and with your other gear is sorta analogous to how you don't know how pickups will sound until you've tried them in your guitar and through your own amp etc.

I think the alnicos and heritage series (as robb said) are still made in the UK. I think the creamback (and maybe the new higher power g12h30) is, too. i've heard the mesa ones are, too. Dunno about the marshall ones.
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