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Old 01-16-2003, 06:09 PM   #1
beatallica_fan
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Further modes??

Now i know the modes based around the ionian scale. I am currently learning the harmonic minor scales and its modes, i have nailed the 4th mode (romanian minor) and 5th mode (phrygian dominant) can anyone tell me the names of the 2nd, 3rd, 6th and 7th modes??? Also does a whole new set of modes exist based around a completely different scale, all help is appreciated although Cas im looking at you bud when im asking these questions.
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Old 01-16-2003, 06:21 PM   #2
Outlandish101
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These are the names.

I Ionian cdefgab
II Dorian defgabc
III Phrygian efgabcd
IV Lydian fgabcde (never heard this called romanian before?)
V Mixolydian gabcdef
VI Aeolian abcdefg
VII Locrian bcdefga

Most of the names for these scales come from regions in the classical greek world, eg Phrygia and Lydia used to be in what is now Turkey. Don't know why.

Useless information comes as standard.
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Old 01-16-2003, 06:23 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally posted by Outlandish101
These are the names.

I Ionian cdefgab
II Dorian defgabc
III Phrygian efgabcd
IV Lydian fgabcde (never heard this called romanian before?)
V Mixolydian gabcdef
VI Aeolian abcdefg
VII Locrian bcdefga

Most of the names for these scales come from regions in the classical greek world, eg Phrygia and Lydia used to be in what is now Turkey. Don't know why.

Useless information comes as standard.


Yeah, erm i said i knew the modes based around the ionian scale, its the modes of the harmonic minor scale im interested in, plus any other sets of modes, thanks anyway.
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Old 01-17-2003, 06:27 PM   #4
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Originally posted by beatallica_fan


Yeah, erm i said i knew the modes based around the ionian scale, its the modes of the harmonic minor scale im interested in, plus any other sets of modes, thanks anyway.



lmao ........... i love when people answer a post with something you already plainly stated that you know .....

anywho ....... you know your major modes right ? lol

first thing .... the names of the melodic minor and harmonic minor modes, all referance the parent major modes in the names.
for example "phrygian dominant" .... lets brake that name down. Phrygian .... well, what characteristic feature does phrygian have that no other major mode has ? ... well, the b2 with the 5th and the b6, aeolian has natural 5 and the b6 but it don't have the b2... locrian has the b2 and the b6 but it doesnt have a natural 5th .... so those notes are unique to the phrygian mode . The other half of the name ... dominant, well whats so unique about dominant ? the only major mode with a maj3rd and a b7. so ... there ya go, Phrygian dominant, combining the characteristics of those 2 modes.
some names are more simple in their description ... like locrian natural 2 .... just take the locrian scale and make the b2 a natural 2 ...

with that out of the way, lets do melodic minor first, as it's not that much of a deviation from the major scale (well, in sound it is, but theres only the 1 difference in the pattern, and thats the b3)

1st.Melodic Minor
1-2-b3-4-5-6-7

used over minr/major 7 chords (1-b3-5-7)

2nd.Dorian b2
1-b2-b3-4-5-6-b7

could be used over -7 b9 chords (1-b3-5-b7-b9) although you don't see those to much. but if you do you could very succesfully jam through this scale and it's go well (also you can use phrygian for obvious reasons, phrygian will give it a bit more exotic sound though due to the b6 in phrygian)
but the more common use of this scale (and phrygian for that matter) is over a SUSb9 chord .... (sus, in this referance, being 1-4-b7, so the sus b9 would be 1-4-b7-b9)

3rd.Lydian Augmented
1-2-3-#4-#5-6-7

used over an augmented chord (1-3-#5) will sound nice. and of course an actually lydian #4 chord (1-3-#4-#5 or with the #4 placed as a #11 ...... 1-3-#5-#11)

4th.Lydian Dominant
1-2-3-#4-5-6-b7

well, use this over any dominant chord with a #4/#11 lol (1-3-#4-5-b7 ........ 1-3-5-b7-#11)...
Also ... and this is very important. this is the scale to use over any dominant chord that doesnt resolve down a fifth (or up a fourth ... same thing). for example say theres a key change D-7 ......| G7.......| Bb-7........ <--- D-7 to G7 follows the key center of C maj. so if it had stayed within the Key, the G7 would have resolved up a 4th. to C (well, it doesnt have to. it coulda went to the another chord within the key.... i'll get to that ) but in this case theres a Key change ...... goes to Bb-7 , so a good choice to use for the G7 would be the G lydian Dominant scale.
now it could have stayed within the key and still not have reolved a 4th up obviously .... coulda gone to the Fmaj7, in which case, it didn't resolve, so the lydian Dominants a good choice there as well.

5th.Mixolydian b6
1-2-3-4-5-b6-b7

dominant chords with b 6's (or b13ths ) 1-3-5-b7-b13. but this scale isn't to often used outside of a classical or neo-classical setting because when a dominant chord has a b13, it's generally gonna have some other alterations to it, like a #11, or b9 which is why the altered scale (which has every possible alteration to a dominant chord in it) is most often used over a 7b13 chord

6th.locrian natural 2 (sorry, couldn't make a natural sign lol)
1-2-b3-4-b5-b6-b7

ahhh ...... love this scale, use this over a -7b5 (half diminished chord 1-b3-b5-b7) yes the regular locrian can be used over -7b5 as well, but the natural 2 is such a pretty note when played over -7b5s .. just sounds awesome

7th.Altered Dominant (aka. altered aka. Alt, aka. diminished wholetone scale ... because it starts out like a H-W diminished scale and ends like a wholetone scale, aka pomeroy scale.... named after herb pomeroy .... dude that used to teach at berklee )
1-b2-#2-3-#4-#5-b7 (or you might see it or consider it spelled like so 1-b2-#2-3-b5-b6-b7) either way, same thing...

this chord covers all your bases when coming to a dominant chord lol. the dominant chord is full of inherent tension from the beggining (the 3rd and the 7th creating a tri-tone) and that tension always wants to resolve up a fourth ( it can resolve to major chord, a minor chord, a minor/major 7 chord, or even another dominant) so with the inherent tension ..... why not **** it up even more and create the most beautiful tension you possibly can lol....... the more tension, the better it will resolve up that foruth.
thats what this scale does, it has every possible alteration you can manage . now normally when you see an alt chord it's generally written with the alt (written C alt or G alt or whatever the chord may be) so as to avoid having to write C7 (b9/#9/b13 etc..) also a #9 chord (i.e. C#9 etc..) generally incinuates an alt chord (in jazz mind you....... if you saw that in rock or funk you'd want to play a straight #9 more often than not) which means at any given time, the person comping (whether the guitarist or pianist) can play a dominant chord with any of those alteration, or only one of them.
dominant chords is the inherent tesnion really allows you to play anything if you phrase it right and resolve it to a chord tone of the next chord. (of course this is a very brief synopsis of the inner workings of altered dominants and the scale, as this one topic alone could fill a book )

ok, now that we have the melodic minor modes out of the way ....... on to harmonic minor. also note harmonic minor **** is more often that note reserved for classical/neo-classical **** ... and metal. where as melodic minor is used ina much larger variety of music like jazz/blues/funk/jam band **** etc..

1st.Harmonic Minor
1-2-b3-4-5-b6-7

once again, minor/major 7 chords ............ gives a darker more exotic sound compared to the melodic minor due to the b6

2nd.locrian natural 6 or locrian 6
1-b2-b3-4-b5-6-b7
Note:(some people will refer to this as locrian #6 ... which is misleading , a #6 would be a b7 , and thats not the case in this scale, but what the mean is you # the 6 that is in the locrian scale, which is a b6, but if you sharp something thats flat, it makes it natural. pretty ****ing dumb to call it #6 if you ask me, although i don't see it TOO much)

diminished 7th chords ....... fully dimminished ... 1-b3-b5-bb7 (as the bb7 = a natural 6). can also be used over normal -7b5's but be careful of that 6

3rd.Ionian Augmented / Ionian #5
1-2-3-4-#5-6-7

augmented chords and maj7#5 chords ..... pretttttty

1-3-#5 <-- aug 1-3-#5-7 <--- maj7 #5

4th.Dorian #4
1-2-b3-#4-5-6-b7

works very well over any kind of blues for the most part. if you look at the blues scale, it has a b5 .... b5=#4. so basically this is like a dorian blues without the 4th. in blues the 6th is used frequently to add some nice color, so minor blues + dorian = dorian blues 1-2-3-4-b5-5-6-b7. see how it relates ?

5th.Phrygian Dominant
1-b2-3-4-5-b6-b7

well, this is touch and go, you'll hear people argue this one, but heres the 2 ways you can go on this one. this can be played over 7 b9 chords (dominant b9 ... 1-3-5-7-b9) ****, you can play this over a straight dominant chord and sound fine, this will definitley give you a nice spanish/arabic feel to it, and is used alot in metal. alot of people avoid this scale for dominant b9's though because of the natural 4th, which tends to be thought of as an avoid note over dominants, but with the tension of the b9 and the b13 within the scale it doesnt sound bad.
another chord it's used over .... the SUS b9 again. SUS's pretty much have the same function as dominant chords, but without the tension. so 7b9 and susb9 are going to function the same just as well as a normal 7th and normal sus would.

6th.Lydian #2
1-#2-3-#4-5-6-7

lydian chords with #2's (or #9 .... same difference) in them (i.e. 1-#2-3-#4-5-7 or 1-3-#4-5-7-#9)
although i don't think i've ever come across this specific chord lol

7th.Alt o7 (altered scale with a diminished7 or natural 6)
1-b2-#2-3-#4-#5-bb7

this scale is gay, it's so ambigous it's ridiculous, you could look at it as a diminished chord/scale and a dominant chord scale and every chord that you could play this over has another scale that you could use anyways so **** this one lol .


well ......... hope that helped. any questions .... you know the drill

Cas-
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Old 01-17-2003, 09:38 PM   #5
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Thankyou Cas you are a godsend, im too drunk/tired to take all this in now but ill get back to you with any questions asap, thanks again bud! Beat!
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Last edited by beatallica_fan : 01-17-2003 at 09:42 PM.
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Old 01-17-2003, 11:28 PM   #6
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Cas there is no way you typed all of that out i'm to lazy to read let alone tyoe that but i'm sure it's correct as usual
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Old 01-18-2003, 06:24 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by GunneR
Cas there is no way you typed all of that out i'm to lazy to read let alone tyoe that but i'm sure it's correct as usual


The fact that cas didnt reply immediately tells me he spent a couple of days writing tjis out himself, thanks again Cas i appreciate the effort. One question, in my original post i said i knew the 4th mode of the harmonic minor scale as romanian minor, have you ever heard this term used and do you know any other alternative names for the other scales you listed???
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Old 01-18-2003, 05:17 PM   #8
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Right Cas im gonna write these sets of modes out in C, can you check them for me so i know im reading your notation correctly.

1st.Melodic Minor
1-2-b3-4-5-6-7

C D Eb F G A B

2nd.Dorian b2
1-b2-b3-4-5-6-b7

D Eb F G A B C

3rd.Lydian Augmented
1-2-3-#4-#5-6-7

Eb F G A B C D

4th.Lydian Dominant
1-2-3-#4-5-6-b7

F G A B C D Eb

5th.Mixolydian b6
1-2-3-4-5-b6-b7

G A B C D Eb F

6th.locrian natural 2
1-2-b3-4-b5-b6-b7

A B C D Eb F G

7th.Altered Dominant (aka. altered aka. Alt, aka. diminished wholetone scale ... because it starts out like a H-W diminished scale and ends like a wholetone scale, aka pomeroy scale.... named after herb pomeroy .... dude that used to teach at berklee )
1-b2-#2-3-#4-#5-b7 (or you might see it or consider it spelled like so 1-b2-#2-3-b5-b6-b7) either way, same thing...

B C D Eb F G A

1st.Harmonic Minor
1-2-b3-4-5-b6-7

C D Eb F G Ab B

2nd.locrian natural 6 or locrian 6
1-b2-b3-4-b5-6-b7

D Eb F G Ab B C

3rd.Ionian Augmented / Ionian #5
1-2-3-4-#5-6-7

Eb F G Ab B C D


4th.Dorian #4
1-2-b3-#4-5-6-b7

F G Ab B C D Eb

5th.Phrygian Dominant
1-b2-3-4-5-6-b7

G Ab B C D Eb F (if thats correct which i think it is shouldnt that be a b6, i think you said it did when explaining how the scales were named)

6th.Lydian #2
1-#2-3-#4-5-6-7

Ab B C D Eb F G

7th.Alt o7 (altered scale with a diminished7 or natural 6)
1-b2-#2-3-#4-#5-bb7 (is that flattened, flattened seventh??)

B C D Eb F G Ab

If ive made any errors, which im sure i have please correct, i just find it easier to learn scales like this actually learning the patterns in one key and then transopsing when ive nailed them. Its been a great help, the stuff on the melodic minor and its modes has improved my jazz playing considerably. All i really need clearing up is that 6/b6 question and the exact meaning of the notation bb7. Beat!
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Old 01-18-2003, 06:58 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by beatallica_fan
If ive made any errors, which im sure i have please correct, i just find it easier to learn scales like this actually learning the patterns in one key and then transopsing when ive nailed them.


hey bro ... good job , you even caught a b6 mistake

the ONLY thing you had wrong was the spelling of 2 scales... which alot of people **** up sometimes, especially with the kind of circumstance the the last scales of each one of those scale systems (melodic and harmonic minor) give you lol subsequently, those were the only ones you had the spellings wrong on. technically, pitch wise you were right, spelling was all.


now, i know when we're learning our sharps and flats, we're ask "why can you spell the note Bb as A#?" and we're exlpained that it's like that, so we can avoid having 2 of the same letter names within a scale or chord. like if we have Bb B in a scale, well to avoid confusion we spell it as A#..... BUT, there is also another reason which alot of people don't get explained to them very well.
every letter or spelling has a certain intervallic relationship with another note ... lets take it from C.

C-D-E-F-G-A-B ... ok we all know this is the major scale, but pay attention to the actual order of the letters ... we call D a 2 because looking at C as 1, D is the 2nd letter ... obviously.
and E is 3 because its the 3rd letter after 1 ... now, it might seem like im being blatantly f*cking elementary here .... but heres why im going over all this .... if in some key of C, lets say the spelling has a 2 and a #2 ... well then you would spell it C-D-D# because a D functions as a 2 ... whether it be a b2, 2, or #2..
we wouldn't spell it as Eb , because E is some form of 3rd whether it be b3 or just 3.
ok .. i hear people asking already ...(well, that is if anyone besides beat is reading this lol) "but i thought we couldn't have the same letter spelled 2 different ways within a scale??"
well, we're taught that in the beggining to avoid major confusion when we're just getting the hang of spelling, but sometimes it just can't be avoided (look at the chromatic scale for example lol)
more importantly than just spelling, the letters of the scale tell us what that note is functioning as. if the Key is some form C and it has an A in there, the A is functioning as some sort of 6 because A is 6 letters away from C etc.. etc..

which brings me to your only mistake beat.

Quote:
Originally posted by beatallica_fan
7th.Altered Dominant (aka. altered aka. Alt, aka. diminished wholetone scale ... because it starts out like a H-W diminished scale and ends like a wholetone scale, aka pomeroy scale.... named after herb pomeroy .... dude that used to teach at berklee )
1-b2-#2-3-#4-#5-b7 (or you might see it or consider it spelled like so 1-b2-#2-3-b5-b6-b7) either way, same thing...

B C D Eb F G A


7th.Alt o7 (altered scale with a diminished7 or natural 6)
1-b2-#2-3-#4-#5-bb7 (is that flattened, flattened seventh??)

B C D Eb F G Ab


ok .. in both of these you have C as the b2 and D as the #2 .... technically the pitch is correct, but the spelling is wrong, it should be C as the b2 and Cx (x= double sharp ... or raised 1 whole step) as the #2 .... because in relation to B, C functions as a 2 ( B-C .... C bieng the 2nd note from B). D would be some form of 3rd.

"well #2 is the same as a b3 so whats wrong with spelling it as a D, since D is a b3?"

well because there is a 3rd in the scale (D# .... which you spelled as Eb...... I'll get to that next) and when there is a 3rd in the scale, it takes precedence over the b3..... when a b3 and a 3 are present, you only acknowledge the 3rd, the b3 becomes a #2, which requires us to spell it differently

and that brings us to the Spelling of Eb. in both scales you spelled Eb as a 3rd ... well if you look at the alphabetical order
B-C-D-E ... E functions as a 4th of some kind.
"well Eb is the same as D# so whats the difference?"
the difference once again, is the spelling,
B-C-D
1-2-3
D functions as some form of 3rd becuase well it's the 3rd note from B which is the 1.
B-C-D-E
1-2-3-4
E is going to function as some kind of 4th because it's the 4th "letter" from B

this is the more important reason why we have #'s and b's .... so we can actually designate pitchs with there functions. if we only had #'s or only had b's .... then sometimes a letter would functions as a 2nd and sometimes a letter would function as a 3rd in relation to the same root note. which would be really confusing to learn.

soooooooo ... the proper spelling of the last scales in each of those scale systems would be

7th.Altered Dominant
1-b2-#2-3-#4-#5-b7

B-C-Cx-D#-E#-Fx-A
( x = double # or raised 1 whole step, so Cx is the same as D, and Fx is pretty much the same as a G, but the G would function as a 6 of some sort. which brings us to our "different" way to spell this scale)


1-b2-#2-3-b5-b6-b7
B-C-Cx-D#-Fbb-G-A

some people just use different numbers as the pattern to the scale, but both patterns are really the same pitches, just numbered/spelled differently.

i know it seems confusing at first, but .... it's really not, especially if you're looking at it in the jazz context and want to know what your scale tones are functioning as within a chord or when you're soloing over the changes.

Quote:
Originally posted by beatallica_fan
All i really need clearing up is that 6/b6 question and the exact meaning of the notation bb7. Beat!


the 6/b6 question, yeah you were right, i didnt put the b in front of the 6 lol, thanx for catching it

and the bb = double flat .... in the relevance to using letters, now you know why we use the bb and the x, in order to keep the letter spelling in order with the pitch's function

now, the bb7 thats in that one scale, the alt o7, well thats used so we can have a functioning o7 chord (diminished 7th chord)
and well we use the bb7 so we can call it a dim. 7 chord.
look at how 7th chords are constructed, as you already know, by stacking the first three 3rds within a scale, you get your 7th chords

within a major scale going up in diatonic 3rds (maj3rd-min3rd-maj3rd) gives you a maj7 chord (1-3-5-7)

within a mixolydian (or any other form of dominant based scale)
going up in 3rds (maj3rd-min3rd-min3rd) gives you a dom7 chord
(1-3-5-b7)
within a minor scale, going up in 3rds (min3rd-maj3rd-min3rd) gives you a min7 (1-b3-5-b7)

within a locrian scale (min3rd-min3rd-maj3rd), it gives you a min7 b5 (or a half diminished) (1-b3-b5-b7)

within a Diminished scale the 3rds are all minor 3rds (min3rd-min3rd-min3rd) so but the last 3rd of that chord lans you on the pitch that you could refer to as a 6th, but in keeping with the 7th chord label, we call it a 7th, which requires the actual numeric spelling of it (1-b3-b5-bb7) to use a bb7



i hope that cleared some stuff up and didn't confuse anyone.

anymore questions .... post away .....

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Old 01-18-2003, 07:49 PM   #10
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Thanks Cas thats all my questions answered. I thought that id probably notated some of the notes incorrectly, i knew about the whole, not having an F and F# is the same scale theory but your further explanation really helped as well, it does all make sense when you actually sit down and spend a few minutes thinking about it. Im just glad i got the scales correct pitch wise. I think this thread should be useful for many other users so it might be an idea to move it to archives, see if you get any more feedback from users! Beat!
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Old 01-19-2003, 11:32 AM   #11
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Well after doing some research on my own (about bloody time i hear you shout cas, ha ha) i have another question, this site here http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~...ales/melmin.htm mentions that if you play the modes of the melodic minor descending, then your actually plying aeolian based scales. I dont understand that at all, when it mentions ascending/descending does it mean pitch wise or am i misunderstanding. Hope you can clear this up cas (or anyone else for that matter) as my brain hurts. Heres another site folks might find uselful, if indeed anyone barre me and cas is reading this thread http://www.outsideshore.com/primer/...primer-4-3.html some of the terminology differs from that used by Cas but thats bound to happen with theory such as this, my original source called the 4th mode of harmonic minor, romanian minor, the basic info is sound though.
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Old 01-21-2003, 08:45 AM   #12
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Cut me down again if I have misread this question again.....

For the guitar the what is usually called a Minor scale is the harmonic minor scale and it is a standard set of the same notes, however the melodic minor is different. The notes it uses differ whether you are playing the scale up ( in pitch ) or down, so in A :

up
a b c d e f# g# a

down:

a g(nat) f(nat) e d c b a

You will note that in the downward direction the notes are the same as the min Aeolian scale.

It is quite a cool scale in many ways, it gives you a few more places to go when playing in a particular key.
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Old 01-25-2003, 01:53 AM   #13
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From what I've seen so far I've, Cas, I noticed that you did'nt write the decending pattern of the melodic scale. I'm just wondering if in the modes of the melodic minor you follow the same #6th and #7th's and Natural's on the way down? eh?
maybe you've already coverd this or someone else asked it, but I don't really have the patience to sift through all this.
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