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Old 03-31-2016, 10:53 AM   #1
stefanos604
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deceptive cadence in modern music

Please could you name any modern music that heavily utilizes deceptive cadence ? (V---> VI)

Last edited by stefanos604 : 03-31-2016 at 10:59 AM.
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Old 04-02-2016, 09:16 AM   #2
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After so many days having not even one answer and to be more cleared I post again saying:
Theoretically, when in a melody, near the end of a music phrase or song, sounds the dominant (V) then is expected Perfect or authentic cadence (V in I or i).
This happens in almost all Greek folk and modern (at least Eurovision type) songs.
Deceptive cadence (V---> VI) is common in classical music it sounds great and facilitates modulations. I have found dozens of such classical melodies in Youtube especially in instrumental music. But I have not found even one on modern Western Music.
I am asking in learning if there is and if it would be sound great such an adaptation of deceptive cadence in modern Western Music.
In a few words I ask:
Can such rules of Classical be adapted to modern Western Music?
I mean, as an amateur of just only folk and modern music, what is the point of theoretically learning rules if then they cannot be implemented?
Or are such rules definitely not applicable in modern music and I have just been trying in vain to find such songs?
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Old 04-02-2016, 09:41 AM   #3
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This is what came to my mind. I know it's not a "modern" song but the arrangement is "modern" (much more simple pop arrangement). The original chords are way different. But yeah, you can hear the V-vi in the end of the verse ("once in a lullaby").

Also, it's not a "rule", it's a common practice, and I'm sure you can find it in pop songs. Maybe not in cadences per se but I'm sure you can find V-VI chord changes in many pop songs. Radiohead's Creep is one that comes to my mind. It's really not an "actual" V-VI. It's III-IV, but the III major chord functions as a secondary dominant for the relative minor. And if you analyze it in the relative minor, the IV chord of major is the VI of the relative minor. But yeah, that's not really a cadence - a cadence is something that ends a phrase. It's just a V-VI (kind of) chord change.



In pop I would guess it's a bit more common to go V-IV that is not common in classical music.





Oh, one of the most common chord progressions in pop music is I-V-vi-IV, or the same starting on the vi chord (vi-IV-I-V) (which in many cases is actually the i chord but it's a bit ambiguous). If you start the progression with the vi, then every repeat of the progression ends/starts with a "deceptive cadence". This progression is used in many many many pop songs. I remember posting a list of songs that used that progression in some thread...


Also, here's a song that came to my mind that uses a deceptive cadence to modulate a minor third up, and also back to the original key. The verse ends with a V chord that resolves a half step up (to bVI that becomes the IV of the new key), and the chorus ends with a V chord that resolves a whole step up (to VI major chord that becomes the I of the new key).



Another (more well known) song with exactly the same key changes would be "Armageddon It" by Def Leppard.






Sorry for the heavy editing of my post, but I just wanted to say one more thing.

Quote:
I mean, as an amateur of just only folk and modern music, what is the point of theoretically learning rules if then they cannot be implemented?

Watch this video:



There are definitely similarities between different genres and the more you know about music, the more similarities you start seeing. Theory is not rules, it just explains what happens in music.
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Old 04-02-2016, 11:09 AM   #4
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Thanks MaggaraMarine.
A lot of staff to deal with for a long time.
Just a 1st question:
I tried to find the song in guitar .
The melody as it is played by the girl here:

(time 3:40 – 4:06) is C major key:
The chords progression I heard is:
C – Em – F – C – F – Fm – C – Am – G – Am – F – Fm – C. Having deceptive cadence G – Am (V ---->vi at time: 3:57 – 4:02 .
I would appreciate if you could check that 25 secs of the song and tell me if I am right or wrong. I believe I am right.
And when there will be time one melody having V --->VI (maybe in one of those you have already quote...)
A scond question: Fm that does not belong to C major how can be called?
Many thanks again.

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Old 04-02-2016, 11:13 AM   #5
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The IVm chord is a classic example of modal interchange.

Basically, we're using a chord from C minor in C major for effect.
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Old 04-02-2016, 11:57 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet Penguin
The IVm chord is a classic example of modal interchange.

Basically, we're using a chord from C minor in C major for effect.

Please another youtube example at the time of modal interchange ?
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Old 04-02-2016, 12:05 PM   #7
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If you listen to "Creep" by Radiohead (can be found in the song examples in my last post), it also has that IV-iv chord change. It's kind of a cliche.

Yeah, it's just modal interchange. You could see the Fm as being "borrowed" from the parallel minor (C minor). It's basically mixing parallel major and minor. And that's really common.


And yeah, the chords are correct. Though, I'm not sure if I would call the second chord an Em (0 2 0 0 1 0) or if it's actually some kind of a Cmaj9 chord. Actually, to me it sounds like she isn't even playing the low E string. Now that I listen to the chord, it actually sounds like a G/B chord with the two highest strings as some kind of a pedal point/non-resolved suspension.
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Old 04-03-2016, 08:36 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaggaraMarine
If you listen to "Creep" by Radiohead (can be found in the song examples in my last post), it also has that IV-iv chord change. It's kind of a cliche.

chord change YES. But can we say that it is a cadence? (cadence means at the end of a music phrase or at the end of the song). In all the examples I think that chord change that ''looks like'' defective cadence is in the middle of the music phrase - not at the end.
My question from the begining of the thread was if there are in modern music such defective cadences , too.
I am searching for such a cadence in modern western music.
By the way how would you call that chord change?
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Old 04-03-2016, 08:57 AM   #9
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The phrase doesn't end there, though, so it's not fair to call it a cadence, which by definition describes the ending of a phrase.

It's a form of plagal cadence, regardless, IV/iv-I.

And we already answered. Modal interchange, borrowed chords from the parallel key.
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Quote:
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lots of flirting with the other key without confirming. JUST LIKE THEIR LOVE IN THE MOVIE OH DAMN.
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Originally Posted by Hail
you're acting like you have perfect pitch or something
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Old 04-03-2016, 09:14 AM   #10
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Cadences in the classical sense (a set of harmonic closes with formulaic voiceleading that end phrases) aren't really that prevalent in modern music. For most modern purposes an authentic cadence is the same as a V-I progression, a plagal cadence is the same as a IV-I progression, and a deceptive cadence is the same as a V-VI progression.
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Old 04-03-2016, 09:21 AM   #11
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TS

I answered your question about song examples of modal interchange, and "Creep" is a good example of that. My answer had nothing to do with cadences. How would I call that chord change? Well, I don't know if there's a name for it. But the minor iv chord comes from the parallel minor, and borrowing from the parallel key is called "modal interchange".

Also, my post has many examples of deceptive cadences. As I said, one of the most common progressions in pop music ends with a deceptive cadence.

But you may not find that many actual cadences in modern pop. It's not that much based on the traditional "start with the I chord, end with a V-I". Of course there are plenty of pop songs that also have basic cadences and all that, but there's a lot of other kind of stuff too. A lot of modern pop music seems to emphasize the IV or the ii chord (or VI or iv in minor). And in that kind of songs cadences are pretty much non-existent. They usually have a repeating (approximately) four chord progression that stays the same throughout the song.

For example take something like "Teenage Dream". It's basically a IV-V vamp and there are no I chords anywhere in the song. Same thing happens in "Call Me Maybe", even though it's basically vi-IV-I-V. The vi and I chords just don't get much emphasis. Both of those songs are basically a non-resolved IV-V vamp.

So cadences aren't necessarily that important in modern pop music. Usually the progression does have the I chord somewhere, but it doesn't start or end the progression, it's in the middle of the progression which makes the resolution a lot less obvious.
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Old 04-03-2016, 01:38 PM   #12
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There must be loads of songs in major keys where V goes to VI instead of I, but all I can think of is the Beatles "Not a Second Time" - which was apparently the origin of William Mann's notorious identification of "aeolian cadences" in their music (a phrase which John Lennon said sounded "like exotic birds").
The chord sequence is Am - Bm - D7 - Em, so the question is: is that a deceptive cadence in G major, or an aeolian cadence in E minor?

Checking out Dominic Pedler's book, he spots a similar moment in "Do You Want to Know a Secret", where a B7 goes to C#m instead of E; and another in "Octopus's Garden" (same key) where an A-B move also goes to C#m, before the repeat of the A-B leads to E.

He suggests they would heard the idea in their early covers, such as "Sheik of Araby" (key of C, G goes to Am at one point) and "The Honeymoon Song" (key E, G#m-F#m leads to C#m - not sure this counts myself, but it does have a similar sound).
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Old 04-03-2016, 04:00 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jongtr
There must be loads of songs in major keys where V goes to VI instead of I, but all I can think of is the Beatles "Not a Second Time" - which was apparently the origin of William Mann's notorious identification of "aeolian cadences" in their music (a phrase which John Lennon said sounded "like exotic birds").
The chord sequence is Am - Bm - D7 - Em, so the question is: is that a deceptive cadence in G major, or an aeolian cadence in E minor?

Really the end of the phrase” No no no, not a second time’’ is in Em (vi) instead of G(I). Though Ι have read arguments about it.
You have opened new paths of knowledge by your posting.
Reading the Wikipedia here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_a_Second_Time has guided me to many more relative important posts
I hope "Not a Second Time" is not unique in defective cadence
Thanks everybody
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Old 04-03-2016, 04:03 PM   #14
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Clearly, none of you listen to enough Contemporary Christian Music

Besides going first inversion on the tonic, the easiest way to make a tag is to use a deceptive cadence.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet Penguin
lots of flirting with the other key without confirming. JUST LIKE THEIR LOVE IN THE MOVIE OH DAMN.
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Originally Posted by Hail
you're acting like you have perfect pitch or something
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Old 04-03-2016, 04:12 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoMvsEu
Clearly, none of you listen to enough Contemporary Christian Music

Besides going first inversion on the tonic, the easiest way to make a tag is to use a deceptive cadence.

Is it easy for you for a detailed example?
Thanks
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Old 04-03-2016, 04:38 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoMvsEu
Clearly, none of you listen to enough Contemporary Christian Music

Besides going first inversion on the tonic, the easiest way to make a tag is to use a deceptive cadence.

I listen to exactly enough contemporary Christian music.
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Old 04-03-2016, 04:51 PM   #17
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10,000 Reasons (Bless the Lord)
Ending chorus tag

Be Thou My Vision (less recent by a lot)
Second and third cadences in each verse

Oceans (Where Feet May Fall)
Many times V-IV, sometimes V-vi

Non-CCM:
https://vimeo.com/140506935
pre-chorus Ab-Cm-Eb-Bb x2 to chorus Fm

@JRF: enough to hear many deceptive cadences and IAC's, to clarify, not enough for your lack of care for the genre (or belief, for that matter, if you really want to go there, but I don't think you do).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet Penguin
lots of flirting with the other key without confirming. JUST LIKE THEIR LOVE IN THE MOVIE OH DAMN.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hail
you're acting like you have perfect pitch or something

Last edited by NeoMvsEu : 04-03-2016 at 05:16 PM. Reason: lol weird capitalization.
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Old 04-03-2016, 05:07 PM   #18
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Sounds like too much tbh.
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Old 04-04-2016, 01:42 AM   #19
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My understanding (and teaching) of a Deceptive Cadence is when the V goes to anything but I

And I tend to view any situation when a V goes directly to IV and then I it's simply a downward leading Cadence.

I can see the argument that its Deceptive then Plagal, and I get that, but functionally I see it as a roundabout V-I.

Totally agree with Neo on the point of Christian music...especially Contemporary Worship - where the songs can tend to Vamp from V to IV to V indefinitely, extending the song, and building up that anticipated release when it finally goes to I.

Best,

Sean

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Old 04-04-2016, 02:38 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoMvsEu
[SPOILER=10,000 Reasons (Bless the Lord)]
Non-CCM:
https://vimeo.com/140506935
pre-chorus Ab-Cm-Eb-Bb x2 to chorus Fm

Please is it possible to mark the exact time of the cadences on the video?
thanks
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