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Old 01-27-2009, 08:37 AM   #21
axemanchris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ikonoklast
Does this mean anyone recording a cover onto youtube or even our profiles here at UG should technically have to pay to record these covers?


GREAT question. Here's the short answer, as I understand it:

Yes, it is illegal to post covers of songs you haven't paid the mechanicals for on internet sites.

YouTube's terms of service are very clear on that, and they have a system in place where these things can be reported. There is loads of evidence of things being removed for exactly this reason. What I'd like to know is how they can hide behind their terms of service as a means of not being accountable for the material they are distributing. I guess all it would take would be a single higher-profile lawsuit, but nobody has been willing to go there just yet. Until fairly recently, the average computer user could not actually make a copy for themselves - it was just streaming. This would be akin to the broadcasting of a radio signal. (except radio stations track the songs they play and the artists get paid performance royalties accordingly). YouTube does not do this - nor is it feasable. With realplayer11 that allows the downloading of streaming material, now this copyright material is being *distributed*. That is going to smell like a whole other kettle of fish.

Unless there is something I missed, UG cannot allow us to post covers either. Sure, there's a forum for it, and a great many of us have covers in our profile (admittedly, myself included). Most internet sites, in the interest of not getting their hosting shut down, are quite explicit about not allowing cover songs. "post it on someone else's server, and post a link...." haha.....)

Now there is movement afoot to change the rules on this significantly. I emailed SOCAN with this very question, and they are working towards a tariff for internet sites to pay an annual license fee (a blanket license), so that they would work like most campus radio stations and community television stations. It would probably be a minimum fee (probably based on the size of the site), plus a percentage of their advertising revenue for the year.

The fly in the ointment for that, though, is that seems to cover the broadcasting or streaming of copyrighted media on their sites. Would it cover the *distribution* of this material? I dunno.

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Quote:
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Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
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Old 01-27-2009, 10:03 AM   #22
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Hmm very interesting to know. I bet that Canon geezer is bummed about not copyrighting his song. Thousands of covers and Millions of hits. He could make some serious money out of youtube, no?
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Old 01-27-2009, 04:11 PM   #23
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^^Downloading videos of youtube isn't new with realplayer11 there are plenty of sites on the internet that will do it, then are just not as well know (I remember the way we found out was when we got a sheet on how to do it in an IT class, we used getvid.com or something like that).

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ikonoklast
Hmm very interesting to know. I bet that Canon geezer is bummed about not copyrighting his song. Thousands of covers and Millions of hits. He could make some serious money out of youtube, no?

I assume you mean JerryC, not Johann Pachelbel.
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Old 01-27-2009, 04:18 PM   #24
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So do files of the instrumental/vocal tracks count as "evidence/proof"? Like Nuendo/Audacity/Cubase/Whatever files. Because someone else could record the same thing, or even take apart the tracks (that's just desperate) and claim it was theirs.
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Old 01-27-2009, 04:43 PM   #25
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Now, it might just be me being an idiot, but how exactly (read: as if you were explaining to someone ******ed) does the 'poor mans copyright' work?

You mail yourself something. So what?
Hypothetically speaking, if I killed Mr. Vai after he finished mastering a new album and sent it to myself, that's basic proof that I own it?
It's driving me mad trying to bend my mind around how that works.
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Old 01-27-2009, 05:35 PM   #26
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Now, it might just be me being an idiot, but how exactly (read: as if you were explaining to someone ******ed) does the 'poor mans copyright' work?

You mail yourself something. So what?
Hypothetically speaking, if I killed Mr. Vai after he finished mastering a new album and sent it to myself, that's basic proof that I own it?
It's driving me mad trying to bend my mind around how that works.

All mail is stamped with an official legally recognized date stamp. By mailing it to yourself all you are doing is showing that you had created the work on or before the date of the stamp. Of course the envelope/package has to be unopened and not show signs of tampering.

Let's say Mr Vai did the same thing each time he finished writing a new song for his album. You would have the final album mastered album and might be able to "prove" the date at which you got it. But the Vai estate would have his earlier mail which shows he wrote these songs earlier than when you did.

The cops would see motive and a piece of evidence officially dated around the time of Mr Vai's death and you would be arrested for murder as well as fraud.


Quote:
Originally Posted by xChristgrindeRx
So do files of the instrumental/vocal tracks count as "evidence/proof"? Like Nuendo/Audacity/Cubase/Whatever files. Because someone else could record the same thing, or even take apart the tracks (that's just desperate) and claim it was theirs.
Did you read Chris's article it was written specifically to answer questions exactly like this. keep your question in mind and read it again looking for an answer - especially the part about copyrighting your own work. Here it is again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by axemanchris
Here are some not-so-effective things that I, personally, wouldn't trust and why:
1. Date-stamps on your computer - though these may suggest that the file was created on a certain date, there is no disinterested third party proof that you did not tamper with your Windows clock. With a few mouse clicks, you can create a file that will appear to have been created on January 1, 1980 - even before many of us were even born!
So short answer no those files don't count as evidence/proof since the date is unreliable.
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Old 01-27-2009, 07:34 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by 20Tigers
Excellent. Very informative.


Thanks!

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Originally Posted by 20Tigers
Can't copyright band names??


Maybe tonight....

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Originally Posted by 20Tigers

Also there is no registration in New Zealand either.


Doesn't New Zealand's copyright law get somehow covered by Australia's?

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Originally Posted by 20Tigers
You didn't say anything about how long a copyright lasts. Or about agencies that collect on behalf etc. I thought it might be good to know how that works.


About duration... it varies from place to place. It seems to range between 50-85 years after the death of the most-recently deceased composer. So, even though Lennon is dead, the Beatles' stuff will be measured from the date of McCartney's death. These updated durations (they were mostly all 50 years before) are not retroactive. So, a work created before the laws changed is still subject to the old 50 years duration, and a work created after the laws would be subject to the new 70-85 years duration.

This inconsistency can cause problems, because a person would have to find out the country of origin of the composer (what if there is more than one country of origin?) and the date of the composition and then look up their copyright laws to see if the work is public domain.

About public domain... you could take a work that is in the public domain and make an arrangement of it (say, arranging Pachelbel's Canon for concert band), and your arrangement would be considered a creative work. That arrangement would be copyrighted until 50-85 years after your death.

The two biggest types of agencies that collect royalties on your behalf are performing rights organizations (like SOCAN) who collect performance royalties, and mechanical royalties agencies (like Harry Fox) who collect mechanicals. In general, though, it is up to you to collect whatever royalties you are entitled to.

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Quote:
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Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
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Old 01-27-2009, 09:03 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by axemanchris
Doesn't New Zealand's copyright law get somehow covered by Australia's?

No - separate countries, seperate governments, separate laws, separate enforcement.

But there are some agencies that operate on behalf of copyright holders in both countries that administer rights and collect royalites from third parties on either side of the Tasman.
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Old 01-27-2009, 09:46 PM   #29
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5 - copyright and the use of samples

The use of samples goes beyond simply needing permission to use the song. You are *also* using someone else's performance from a recording that is probably owned by yet another person.

This is something that can get extraordinarily complex. You have a number of stakeholders, and therefore, may need to get permission from a variety of sources:
-a mechanical license - enables you to use the composition that the sample is from
-permission from the person who owns the copyright to the recording itself - The master recording belongs to the producer until such time as the recording is paid for. Once it is paid for, then the purchaser of the master recording owns it. (similar to the idea that if a photographer takes your picture, even though it is a picture of you, the photographer owns that image until you buy it from them.)
-you *might* even need to get the permission of the musician whose performance you are sampling. (especially if there are moral rights that need to be considered - ex. using a sample from a RATM song in your song that is in support of oppression would clearly be problematic)
-and if the song gets played on the radio, for instance, you need to have an agreement in place where the creator of the work you sampled from gets a portion of the performance royalty. (though this might be part of the fee agreement)

Here is an excellent article from a Canadian entertainment lawyer, who explains it in language that most of us musicians can understand:
http://www.zvulony.com/music_sampling.html

Another UK-focused article that is very good and makes reference to the famous Under Pressure/Ice Ice Baby case:
http://www.musiclawupdates.com/arti...ainsthesame.htm

Between the two of those, I really don't have anything to add, and these links explain it as well as or better than I could.

A couple of short paragraphs from another Canadian entertainment lawyer, written in very simple English.
http://www.sandersonlaw.ca/FAQ.html#A20

A move that many artists have started to choose is, rather than sample, to re-create their own version of the sound. In other words, don't use the original recording of Joe Perry playing the riff for Walk This Way... hire a guitarist to come in and duplicate the tone and performance as close as possible and use that. The word they use is to 'interpolate' the performance.

Other solutions:

1. Check sites like royaltyfreemusic.com and other sites that offer music that may be used freely (ie. without requiring the payment of royalties).
2. Check the Creative Commons database for similar.

In either case, be sure to read the terms of service for both the site and even the specific track, if applicable. You'll find that some sites and some tracks (many, in fact) will have limitations around how the work is to be used. Many works are made free for personal use, but do not allow commercial redistribution (which would, of course, be a barrier to the use of samples).

The good news is that the artist/publisher will generally be easy to contact, and may well be receptive to negotiating a deal that you can both happily live with and will not be financially prohibitive.

CT
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Quote:
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Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.

Last edited by axemanchris : 01-29-2009 at 08:36 AM.
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Old 01-27-2009, 11:02 PM   #30
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Band names - the legal:

No two businesses that offer the same or similar product or service can have the same name in the same market.

What does that mean, exactly? If I own Bob's Card and Gifts in London England, and find out there is another Bob's Card and Gift in New York, that's okay. We're offering the same product/service, but we are hardly competing in the same market. It's not like anyone is going to get us confused. In fact, since the market for a card and gift shop is generally a community market, or at least a local market, you could have a Bob's Card and Gift in pretty well every city and town. People don't tend to go to the next town to buy birthday cards.

Now... I can NOT open up a restaurant and call it McDonald's. McDonald's has successfully managed to expand their market to a point where they are global. No matter where you are, if you are a restaurant called McDonald's, there is another McDonald's already offering that product/service in that area. Funny, too, that you really start tempting trouble if you were to call yourself anything really close to that either. I wouldn't use MacDonald's, McDoonalds, etc.

So what does this mean for band names? Bands, like any other business or service, CAN share a name, as long as they are not competing in the same market. In other words, if one band is in Australlia and the other is in Florida, that’s fine. You're offering a similar product/service (musical entertainment), yes, but not at all in the same market. At least not yet. It's not like someone out there is going to confuse the two bands and buy the wrong product. You're half a planet away!

If, at some point, one band gets big enough and starts to do business in the other band's market, then one band will have to change their name. (Bush had to operate as Bush X, but only in North America IIRC... there was no other confusion in any other market) The band who had the name first *in that market* gets to keep the name *in that market.*

Similarly, the Raconteurs work as the Saboteurs in Australia. http://www.nme.com/news/the-raconteurs/22744 Note that the two bands aren't even in the same genre, but are still providing musical entertainment, so there is a problem. Kinda like you could open a bowling alley and call it McDonald's, but you can't open a restaurant and call it McDonald's.... even if it is an up-scale vegan restaurant. It's still a restaurant.

Generally what happens then is that one will buy the other out for rights to the name, or like Bush/BushX/Raconteurs/Saboteurs will change their name to work in that new, previously un-tapped market.

Here is a corporate example....

There was a little independent bookstore in a small town in Ontario called Chapter's. There was another much larger bookstore who started to become a small chain of bookstores in British Columbia called Chapters. (note the difference in spelling....) No problem. They're offering a similar product/service, yes, but in entirely different markets. Literally three time zones away.

What happened, though, is that the chain in British Columbia continued to expand. Eventually, they expanded not only into Ontario, but to a medium-sized city about 10 minutes away from the small-town Chapter's.

Now, we have two businesses offering the same product/service, with *almost* the same name, operating in the same market. Could one easily confuse Chapters with Chapter's? You bet. If someone asked you to go to Chapters and buy the latest Harry Potter book, would you know which of the two stores to go to? Nope. Now we have a problem.

The mega-chain Chapters, to make a long story short, could have been disallowed the opportunity to use the Chapters name in their new market, as the other Chapter's was there first. Ultimately, as I understand it, the smaller independent Chapter's in the small town was paid out handily enough by the much larger corporate chain Chapters that he pocketed the money, changed thename of his store, and kept going.

BTW... you don't need to be a hugely successful business to prove that you are doing business in a certain market. Do you have product for sale? Are you gigging? Can you prove that? Then you are doing business in that market. Can they prove that they are doing business similarly in their market? Then they are doing business in that market.

Just because it is available on the web doesn't mean you are doing business around the world. Sure, some person *could* log onto iTunes from Zimbabwe and buy my song from iTunes, but what are the odds, really? Assuming they're not likely to buy (never mind, even *find*) some random song/album from some random band they've never heard of except for the 30 second snippet iTunes lets you hear, why would they buy it? Have you toured there? Gotten radio play there? Any print articles about your music? Nope. You're not doing business in that market, then, are you? I mean have *you* ever bought music off the internet from some band *you've* never heard of? :lol:

We sell our stuff on line through our own website. Same idea. We have international distribution now, right? Well.... I'm in Canada near Toronto. We have sold 99% of our CD's to people within an hour's drive of here. We've sold the others - one to New Jersey and one to Ottawa - to people farther away. (though we have had *listeners* from much further away, they don't count as doing business as they are not spending money) It really seems unreasonable for us to declare that we are now doing business in the New Jersey market, though, doesn't it?

It should be pointed out, then, that none of the following mean anything in this matter:
- who is better
- who had it first (at least until someone moves into the other band’s territory)
- whether or not you or they are signed or not

- adding “the” in front of your name won’t make a lick of difference. Do you think McDonald's would be satisfied with another restaurant called "The McDonald's?" Nope.

Protecting your name:

You can't copyright a band name. You can register it as a business, which allows you to prove that you are offering a product or service in a certain market, but doesn't really do much else as far as someone else using the same name. Now, you can *trademark* a name (or more to the point... a "service mark"), but that is a whole other kettle of fish in terms of red tape and monetary cost. A trademark is usually done to protect a logo or something. Think of McDonald's golden arches 'M' for instance, or the Nike swoosh. You don't copyright a logo. You register it as a trademark.

http://www.registeringatrademark.co...aw-basics.shtml
...apparently takes about a year and costs about $1500....

Canadian link says up to two years and costs nearly double that...
http://www.sandersonlaw.ca/tradememo.htm

CT
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Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

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Quote:
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Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
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Old 01-27-2009, 11:32 PM   #31
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Should definitely be sticky'd. This is very insightful and helpful stuff to any wanabe pros. Best thread I've seen all year.
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Old 01-28-2009, 08:07 AM   #32
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Thanks, man!

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Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

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Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
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Old 01-29-2009, 08:30 AM   #33
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Coming soon:

-Home taping (personal copying)
-fair dealing/fair use

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Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

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Old 02-01-2009, 12:11 PM   #34
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Í'm shamelessy bumping this thread for it needs to be stickied already. Because apparenlty some need to read it...
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Old 02-01-2009, 03:09 PM   #35
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Thanks!

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Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

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Quote:
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Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
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Old 02-20-2009, 07:40 AM   #36
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...bumped for EndtheRapture51

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Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

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Old 02-20-2009, 08:01 AM   #37
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Thanks for this...
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Old 02-20-2009, 09:11 PM   #38
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Hey, quick question.
If I were to use speeches from films in my music, would that go under the samples copyright thing you wrote about, or is it different?
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Old 02-20-2009, 09:43 PM   #39
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I would guess so. Being as you'd only be using the audio, you wouldn't have to worry about any visual copyrights or anything, I wouldn't expect. Mechanical license to use the copyrighted material, and permission from whoever owns the master reel. You may well also need permission to use the person's voice you are taking as well.

Best bet would be to contact the film's publisher.

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Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

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Old 04-16-2009, 12:32 AM   #40
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I have a question. You know the trick for copy writing your music by mailing it to yourself and not opening the envelope? How do you get Canada Post to record the date that it was mailed?
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