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Old 03-01-2009, 04:52 PM   #1
Outside Octaves
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Question George Russells's Lydian Chromatic Concept Of Tonal Organization?

Has anyone read/studied this?

I recently obtained a copy of this, and I'm just wondering what other people's opinion of this newer take on theory is?
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Last edited by Outside Octaves : 03-02-2009 at 01:58 PM. Reason: (new changed to newer... oi, stupidity on my part)
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Old 03-01-2009, 05:05 PM   #2
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Well it's pretty old (been around about 50 years) and while I haven't studied from it, I've heard that it's a little esoteric, but has some really cool stuff if you really get into it.

Good luck with it, though.
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Old 03-01-2009, 11:09 PM   #3
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It's old, old news. The theory is the first original take on music theory to come from jazz. George Russell introduced the theory to jazz pianist Bill Evans, who showed it to the rest of the Miles Davis band. In 1959 they released Kind of Blue, the first modal jazz album ever, and George Russell's work became the basis for all modal music.
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Old 03-02-2009, 02:05 PM   #4
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Well, when I said new, I ment new-er... lol. I mean, theory has been around for MANY, MANY ages. I mean, it's only around 50 years old, this book.

So it is really cool then? (for us theory nuts)

I like the idea of tonal gravity. That has me REALLY intreaged in this book. Tonal Gravity just seems so logical, doesn't it?
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Old 03-02-2009, 05:58 PM   #5
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People talk about it on this forum all the time. Whenever anyone asks a question about modes, the discussion becomes about this theory.
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Old 09-22-2012, 06:38 PM   #6
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Impressive book extolling tonal reorganization on lydian's legitimately important normality.
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Old 09-22-2012, 06:49 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodeka
Impressive book extolling tonal reorganization on lydian's legitimately important normality.


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Old 09-22-2012, 08:40 PM   #8
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Old 09-22-2012, 08:51 PM   #9
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> Original post date: 03-01-2009
> Today's date: 09-22-2012
> Post that bumped the thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodeka
Impressive book extolling tonal reorganization on lydian's legitimately important normality.


> mfw
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Old 09-22-2012, 10:15 PM   #10
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What's a mere 3.5 years when you're talking about the recognition of lydian as the true master scale of western music?
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Old 09-22-2012, 10:17 PM   #11
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i'm just going to go ahead and assume it's as inaccurate as the title is pretentious

i'm biased
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Old 09-23-2012, 12:20 AM   #12
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Necrobump aside,

I've had some very basic preliminary thoughts on this same idea before I'd ever heard of this guy or his book.

I consider the tonic - P5 relationship to be at the heart of music.

For a number of reasons that I won't go into too deeply I consider the pentatonic scale to be the elementary and most primal musical scale.

If we look at the structure of the pentatonic scale it is based on consecutive perfect fifths from the root...
(starting on C going up in P5ths we get C G D A E)
...put into a single octave...
(C D E G A)
...and so we are able to span an octave with as few notes as possible where no steps are larger than a minor third.

If we want to expand the scale so that the largest step is a whole tone then we need to add a couple of notes to fill make those minor third steps a bit smaller. It would make sense to continue our cycle of fifths up to B and then to F# which would give us a scale equivalent to the Lydian Mode
C D E F# G A B C .

For me this was a passing fascination and I preferred the sound of the the perfect fifth above and the perfect fifth below the tonic as is found in the major scale and the harmonic functions of the I IV V that we all know so well.
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Old 09-23-2012, 05:35 PM   #13
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About the necrobump, just so ya know...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodeka
Impressive book extolling tonal reorganization on lydian's legitimately important normality.


I was bored. I won't let it happen again.


It does bring up a fairly interesting discussion...why does the major scale contain only one interval built from an inverse fifth?


I like to imagine a world based on the pentatonic scale. A piano's black keys could be its naturals. We can call them V W X Y Z, VWX being the group of three. The circle of fourths (a fifth would become a fourth) would be V Y W Z X. The white keys would be the chromatic alterations (A would become W#/Xb, B would become X#, etc).
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Old 09-23-2012, 05:49 PM   #14
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About the necrobump, just so ya know...

well played
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Old 09-23-2012, 06:04 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Dodeka
About the necrobump, just so ya know...



I was bored. I won't let it happen again.

You just won the shit out of this thread.
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Old 09-23-2012, 07:01 PM   #16
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Old 09-24-2012, 01:19 AM   #17
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It essentially invented chord scale theory, which is the basis for almost all modern pop/jazz harmonic theory...

So yeah, it's kind of important.

Last edited by mattrusso : 09-24-2012 at 01:20 AM.
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Old 09-25-2012, 05:56 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 20Tigers
Necrobump aside,

I've had some very basic preliminary thoughts on this same idea before I'd ever heard of this guy or his book.

I consider the tonic - P5 relationship to be at the heart of music.

For a number of reasons that I won't go into too deeply I consider the pentatonic scale to be the elementary and most primal musical scale.

If we look at the structure of the pentatonic scale it is based on consecutive perfect fifths from the root...
(starting on C going up in P5ths we get C G D A E)
...put into a single octave...
(C D E G A)
...and so we are able to span an octave with as few notes as possible where no steps are larger than a minor third.

If we want to expand the scale so that the largest step is a whole tone then we need to add a couple of notes to fill make those minor third steps a bit smaller. It would make sense to continue our cycle of fifths up to B and then to F# which would give us a scale equivalent to the Lydian Mode
C D E F# G A B C .

For me this was a passing fascination and I preferred the sound of the the perfect fifth above and the perfect fifth below the tonic as is found in the major scale and the harmonic functions of the I IV V that we all know so well.

Think more about psychoacoustics and the overtone series and you'll reach the same conclusion from a possibly more valid angle.
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Old 09-25-2012, 06:09 AM   #19
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I don't know what psychoacoustics are but I know a bit about the overtone series.

The first three overtones (not counting double ups) are the root the perfect fifth and the major third.

Of course there is the perfec fourth between the perfect fifth and the octave but does that count?? Does it??

There are a number of intervals in the overtone series that do not appear in the major scale before some of those that do.

Please elaborate. I'm intrigued.

EDIT: Ah but then the augmented fourth (tritone) is never in the harmonic series so maybe that is the angle I should be looking at??
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Old 09-25-2012, 12:05 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattrusso
It essentially invented chord scale theory, which is the basis for almost all modern pop/jazz harmonic theory...

So yeah, it's kind of important.


get out
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