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Old 09-25-2012, 01:38 PM   #21
primusfan
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i did a term paper on it. it's horse shit. dont bother.
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Old 09-25-2012, 02:52 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 20Tigers
I don't know what psychoacoustics are but I know a bit about the overtone series.

The first three overtones (not counting double ups) are the root the perfect fifth and the major third.

Of course there is the perfec fourth between the perfect fifth and the octave but does that count?? Does it??

There are a number of intervals in the overtone series that do not appear in the major scale before some of those that do.

Please elaborate. I'm intrigued.

EDIT: Ah but then the augmented fourth (tritone) is never in the harmonic series so maybe that is the angle I should be looking at??


We know the major scale is based on the overtone series, loosely, though the higher we get in the series we're significantly +/- a large amount of cents. However many argue that the lydian dominant sound is just the most stable, naturally occuring scale.

in the overtones series you get R R 5 R 3 5 b7 R 9 3 #11, or tones close to what we'd approximate those to be.
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Old 09-25-2012, 04:05 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronowarp
We know the major scale is based on the overtone series, loosely, though the higher we get in the series we're significantly +/- a large amount of cents. However many argue that the lydian dominant sound is just the most stable, naturally occuring scale.

in the overtones series you get R R 5 R 3 5 b7 R 9 3 #11, or tones close to what we'd approximate those to be.


It appears to me that you are confusing the difference between just intonation and equal temperament with whatever point it is you're trying to make.
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Old 09-25-2012, 04:12 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by primusfan
i did a term paper on it. it's horse shit. dont bother.

+1 to this.
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Old 09-25-2012, 04:30 PM   #25
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The Pythagorean tritone corresponds to the 729th harmonic, but despite being a power of 3 that's too remote to be significant (the 81st harmonic ditone already makes for an awful major third).

The 11th harmonic is roughly a quarter tone above a P4...if that means anything.




I did a bad thing bumping this thread.
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Old 09-25-2012, 04:38 PM   #26
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Old 09-25-2012, 08:20 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodeka

I did a bad thing bumping this thread.


For Shame!!!
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Old 09-26-2012, 03:29 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by J-Dawg158
It appears to me that you are confusing the difference between just intonation and equal temperament with whatever point it is you're trying to make.

mmm, no!
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Old 09-26-2012, 01:00 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronowarp
mmm, no!


Alright then.

Quote:
We know the major scale is based on the overtone series, loosely,


The 12-tone chromatic scale is based on the harmonic series, (or overtone series as you refer to it) of which the major scale is a subset. While I find no fault in your logic I just wanted to pedantically point that out.

Quote:
though the higher we get in the series we're significantly +/- a large amount of cents.


Compared to what? Equal temperament vs. just intonation?

Quote:
However many argue that the lydian dominant sound is just the most stable, naturally occuring scale.


So... got anything to back it up?

Quote:
in the overtones series you get R R 5 R 3 5 b7 R 9 3 #11, or tones close to what we'd approximate those to be.


Yes and if you keep on iterating, then you eventually get the entire 12-tone system along with some different enharmonic tones(i.e. an Ab unequal to a G#).

I see no point to your random collection of facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 20Tigers
Please elaborate. I'm intrigued.
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Old 09-26-2012, 01:07 PM   #30
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anything to back it up....the strongest (first occuring) overtones in the series roughly spell a dom7#11

not sure why you think im confused about temperament...I didn't say anything about temperament...I replied to a post about why he thought Lydian was the strongest tonal center, like george russel presents in his book (stacked 5ths). I gave him another lens to view it through; the way it loosely arrives out of the overtone series.

I can't believe I'm arguing with someone named J-dawg. That's just embarassing.
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Last edited by chronowarp : 09-26-2012 at 01:12 PM.
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Old 09-26-2012, 01:20 PM   #31
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We know the major scale is based on the overtone series, loosely, though the higher we get in the series we're significantly +/- a large amount of cents.


↑ This ↑

What kind of varience are you talking about?
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Old 09-26-2012, 01:20 PM   #32
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It's too much of a stretch to say the major scale is based on overtones. The major triad is, but the presence of the P4 and M6 alone suggests there is an overriding ideal.

You can use 8:9:10:11:12 to justify sharpening the fourth degree (the undecimal tritone), but that still doesn't account for the sixth degree (is it 13:8 or 7:4, the latter being considered a subminor seventh?).

I would agree the eleventh harmonic is not insignificant to the ear, though. It's just not significant to the derivation of the scale of Western music.

We could just say our principal scale is octatonic; 8:9:10:11:12:13:14:15:16 with continually diminishing step sizes leading up the octave. Harmony might be a tad awkward. Not many 3:2's, for starters.

I don't see undertones as any less significant than their vaunted inverses.
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Old 09-26-2012, 01:22 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Dawg158
↑ This ↑

What kind of varience are you talking about?


I don't understand your question. You seem a bit confused. I think we both understand the overtones series doesn't match JI or 12TET exactly, but my statement has absolutely nothing to do with temperament. Moreover, my statement wasn't even definitive or meant to be explanatory in any other way than giving the poster another perspective.
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Last edited by chronowarp : 09-26-2012 at 01:23 PM.
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Old 09-26-2012, 01:27 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodeka
It's too much of a stretch to say the major scale is based on overtones. The major triad is, but the presence of the P4 and M6 alone suggests there is an overriding ideal.

You can use 8:9:10:11:12 to justify sharpening the fourth degree (the undecimal tritone), but that still doesn't account for the sixth degree (is it 13:8 or 7:4, the latter being considered a subminor seventh?).

I would agree the eleventh harmonic is not insignificant to the ear, though. It's just not significant to the derivation of the scale of Western music.

We could just say our principal scale is octatonic; 8:9:10:11:12:13:14:15:16 with continually diminishing step sizes leading up the octave. Harmony might be a tad awkward. Not many 3:2's, for starters.

I don't see undertones as any less significant than their vaunted inverses.

I believe the argument goes:
the most audible overtones of a tonic have simple ratios 3:2(5th), 4:3(4th)
and the strongest overtones off those chords collectively give you the notes of a major scale. C G E, F C A, G D B--->C D E F G A B= Cmaj
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Last edited by chronowarp : 09-26-2012 at 01:30 PM.
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Old 09-26-2012, 01:37 PM   #35
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Right, the 5-limit version is 4:5:6 built from the root, fourth and fifth. Unwanted drift will occur changing between ii and vi though.


Even accepting the eleventh harmonic as significant, in terms of commatic variance it's closer to the perfect fourth (33:32, 53.2 cents) than it is to the tritone (729:704, 60.4 cents).
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Old 09-26-2012, 01:39 PM   #36
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ya, i guess youre right@
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Old 09-26-2012, 02:07 PM   #37
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ahhh..the overtone series...the twilight zone of music theory...
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Old 09-26-2012, 02:09 PM   #38
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My question was "What do you mean by your statement?" The way I understood it was as you continue to increase along the harmonic series it diverges from the notes of the major scale which I disagree with. As the series increases it either adds tones, or it repeats a previous tone by way of octaves. Although, I suppose you could consider the fact that the initial tones occur less and less as a divergence I wouldn't characterize it as such.

But as you say it wasn't meant to be explanatory so I don't really care anymore.

Oh and to your clever use of the edit button:
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Old 09-26-2012, 02:11 PM   #39
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Got to admit, though; the 11:8 interval is pretty kew'. Been listening to it here.
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Old 09-26-2012, 07:02 PM   #40
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what did I edit?
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