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Old 09-27-2009, 10:49 AM   #1
MRavioli
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The Allan Holdsworth Thread.

Trying it to see if it gets more action than it does in the Jazz thread.

Anyways, great fusion guitarist, basically laid the foundation for the playing of every other guitarist in this sub-forum.

Road Games is one of my favorite songs by him. The cheesy vocals add so much to the music.


Discuss.
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Old 09-27-2009, 11:00 AM   #2
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He has some of the best signature guitars ever made, too.
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I tried it out in store.

Great neck, nice n light, good tuning stability. Overall a good guitar. I didn't but it cause I generally only buy guitars over a grand now.
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Old 09-27-2009, 07:30 PM   #3
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ah someone took the hint

anyway, my fave holdsworth is his work on jean-luc ponty's record; Enigmatic Ocean.
the playoffs between jean-luc and allan holdsworth are absolutely phenomenal.

on a side note, does anyone have the backwards hammer (the technique that allan does) down?
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Old 09-27-2009, 11:08 PM   #4
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No, I really want to though. Does it apply to every technique, including tapping?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTI2...rom=PL&index=43
It sets a good basework, but not much more. Harrison is cool, but a ****e teacher.
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Old 09-28-2009, 02:53 AM   #5
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I have Metal Fatigue. Pretty badass album.
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Old 09-28-2009, 03:53 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRavioli
No, I really want to though. Does it apply to every technique, including tapping?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTI2...rom=PL&index=43
It sets a good basework, but not much more. Harrison is cool, but a ****e teacher.


I can do it on the first four strings, but the high b and e are mother****ers to do it on.
One idea I got off harrison is to play sequenced scales up and PURELY with hammer ons. I also dont apply it to tapping at all, as I reckon that tapping sounds BETTER with pulloffs.

also, marshall harrison -although a good guitarist- is a total douche.
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Old 09-28-2009, 05:20 PM   #7
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When I get back into Electric (On hiatus, playing purely classical guitar for january) I think I'm going to do a lot of backwards hammering.
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I tried it out in store.

Great neck, nice n light, good tuning stability. Overall a good guitar. I didn't but it cause I generally only buy guitars over a grand now.
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Old 09-28-2009, 06:18 PM   #8
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I've been trying to do the reverse hammer for a while now. I'm slowly getting there, but having such a high action (I've been forcing myself to play with 2mm for over two years) makes it a bit tricky even with high gain - and obviously there's the noise to contend with.

I won't quit, though. The idea, for me, is to get rid of the pull-off completely and do everything (except tapping) Holdsworth/Garsed-style with liquid-like reversed hammers.
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Old 09-28-2009, 06:32 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WishfulShredder
ah someone took the hint

anyway, my fave holdsworth is his work on jean-luc ponty's record; Enigmatic Ocean.
the playoffs between jean-luc and allan holdsworth are absolutely phenomenal.

on a side note, does anyone have the backwards hammer (the technique that allan does) down?


of what i've heard, his work on enigmatic ocean is my favorite. it's such a great album and i love the guitar work on it.

anyone care to elaborate on this backwards hammer? i've never heard of it before.
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Old 09-28-2009, 07:19 PM   #10
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^ It's exactly what the name suggests, really. Take a pattern like this...

Code:
|----------12h14h16h14h12----------| |-12h14h16----------------16h14h12-|


... but think of those backwards hammers going back down as literally just hammers, not your standard pulls going sideways with the index barring. Lift those fingers and drop 'em back on like a hammer, y'know? No barring to be seen or heard. Only one finger should ever be on the board at a time.

At least that's how I've always thought it was done. Goodness knows I've been doing it for long enough to not ever want to go back to normal pulls. It's perfect for the all-legato style of Holdsworth.

Last edited by DaFjory : 09-28-2009 at 07:27 PM.
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Old 09-28-2009, 08:00 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaFjory
^ It's exactly what the name suggests, really. Take a pattern like this...

Code:
|----------12h14h16h14h12----------| |-12h14h16----------------16h14h12-|


... but think of those backwards hammers going back down as literally just hammers, not your standard pulls going sideways with the index barring. Lift those fingers and drop 'em back on like a hammer, y'know? No barring to be seen or heard. Only one finger should ever be on the board at a time.

At least that's how I've always thought it was done. Goodness knows I've been doing it for long enough to not ever want to go back to normal pulls. It's perfect for the all-legato style of Holdsworth.


well... I wouldnt say it's ONLY one finger on the fingerboard at the time. I mean, Im sure thats how holdsworth does it, but he has godfingers and an awesome guitar with an awesome neck. whereas I have average sized fingers and a les paul.

personally, when ascending on a single string, I tend to keep all my fingers down until needed... which if youre doing holdsworth or shawn lane licks... isnt very long

on another note: what are you guyses favourite songs from "Secrets"?
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Old 09-28-2009, 08:41 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WishfulShredder
well... I wouldnt say it's ONLY one finger on the fingerboard at the time. I mean, Im sure thats how holdsworth does it, but he has godfingers and an awesome guitar with an awesome neck. whereas I have average sized fingers and a les paul.


I suppose. And you're right, the neck/action/relief is definitely an important part of it... but the concept as a whole has stuck with me as being one that is either very rigidly adhered to, or shunned completely - as in, if I find myself deviating from doing purely reversed hammers, I end up pissing myself off. Like Holdsworth, I don't actually want to do normal pulls where the string gets dragged quickly sideways. I've always loathed doing that in any situation besides tapping.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WishfulShredder
personally, when ascending on a single string, I tend to keep all my fingers down until needed... which if youre doing holdsworth or shawn lane licks... isnt very long


I think one of us may be getting things mixed up here. You're talking about ascending, but the whole idea of reversed hammers is primarily when descending - hence, one finger at a time with no index barring (so something like 16p14p12 becomes 16h14h12). When it comes to ascending, it seems as though either one finger at a time or all plonked on sequentially is fine. That's not really the important part of the technique.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WishfulShredder
what are you guyses favourite songs from "Secrets"?


I always find myself giggling at Peril Premonition, where Holdsy says " 'Ello! Is thut the frunt desk?!" in the thickest of Bradfordian accents.

And obviously, 54 Duncan Terrace is a timeless classic of his.

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Old 09-28-2009, 10:30 PM   #13
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Honestly, if I were to teach another person to play guitar, I would never teach him pull-offs outside of the concept of tapping. Sure, I would technically 'screw' his technique up, and he would never understand what the tab says with 'p', but I'd tell him to read sheet music anyways.
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Old 09-29-2009, 01:12 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaFjory
I suppose. And you're right, the neck/action/relief is definitely an important part of it... but the concept as a whole has stuck with me as being one that is either very rigidly adhered to, or shunned completely - as in, if I find myself deviating from doing purely reversed hammers, I end up pissing myself off. Like Holdsworth, I don't actually want to do normal pulls where the string gets dragged quickly sideways. I've always loathed doing that in any situation besides tapping.



I think one of us may be getting things mixed up here. You're talking about ascending, but the whole idea of reversed hammers is primarily when descending - hence, one finger at a time with no index barring (so something like 16p14p12 becomes 16h14h12). When it comes to ascending, it seems as though either one finger at a time or all plonked on sequentially is fine. That's not really the important part of the technique.



I always find myself giggling at Peril Premonition, where Holdsy says " 'Ello! Is thut the frunt desk?!" in the thickest of Bradfordian accents.

And obviously, 54 Duncan Terrance is a timeless classic of his.


Yeah peril premonition's bass line is fecking SWEET.

but yeah I didnt realize you were talking primarily about pulloffs, in whichcase, I wholeheartedly agree with you.
although, I think that the pulloff definitely has its place in the world, say if you were soloing to... smoke on the water. the rock context calls for that "miaowing" sound that holdsy hates so much, imo.
one thing else Ive always wondered: how does allan do trills?

Edit:
at MRavioli
but you sort of NEED to know how to do pulloffs to understand backwardshammers.
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Old 09-29-2009, 03:45 AM   #15
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Those backwards hammers are hard as crap, so I just don't really bother. They don't sound smooth to me at all, because you're pausing so you can lift off your third finger (for example) to hammer down your first.
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Old 09-29-2009, 05:22 AM   #16
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I kinda feel hes a little overrated. Yes, he has an awesome legato technique and is a really smooth player, but is he really THAT good? I find players like Guthrie Govan, who plays just as technical stuff, much more listenable to, more melodic.

Maybe I haven't listened to enough of his songs, but it all just seems like soulless random playing.

Just my opinion *puts flame shield up*
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Old 09-29-2009, 06:16 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothongz
I kinda feel hes a little overrated. Yes, he has an awesome legato technique and is a really smooth player, but is he really THAT good? I find players like Guthrie Govan, who plays just as technical stuff, much more listenable to, more melodic.

Maybe I haven't listened to enough of his songs, but it all just seems like soulless random playing.

Just my opinion *puts flame shield up*


PREPARE TO DIE!!!!


no, I understand what you mean, his playing can be completely out, and completely weird.
Try listening to some of his more chordal stuff instead of the solo-ey stuff




and "54 duncan terrace" which doesnt exist on youtube.


also, I heart guthrie govan
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Old 09-29-2009, 08:31 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRavioli
Honestly, if I were to teach another person to play guitar, I would never teach him pull-offs outside of the concept of tapping. Sure, I would technically 'screw' his technique up, and he would never understand what the tab says with 'p', but I'd tell him to read sheet music anyways.


Likewise. I was confused as hell for something like 7 months until finally figuring out how the pull works - and even that was in the context of tapping alone. It felt cool to be able to do them at last, but at the same time I was left thinking "This is it? Jeez, I wish I would've concentrated more on other techniques instead". And so I did. Although as a result, I guess, my pull technique is rather weak... but I compensate for it with pretty decent reverse hammers, as long as I have oodles of gain. It's almost like cheating, but in a good way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WishfulShredder
I think that the pulloff definitely has its place in the world, say if you were soloing to... smoke on the water. the rock context calls for that "miaowing" sound that holdsy hates so much, imo.


That I'll agree with. It's an essential technique in rock and metal, and most of the usual shreddy licks we hear through mundane bands like Poison or W.A.S.P. wouldn't sound as cute if normal pulls weren't used. It's the classic shreddy sound of those genres.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WishfulShredder
one thing else Ive always wondered: how does allan do trills?


He doesn't. The only time I've ever seen him break out into a trill (live) was during an extremely short passage, and he used his tapping finger to do it - kinda like Jeff Beck, but even less frequently. Listening to his albums, I can't think of any trilling which stands out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alter-Bridge
Those backwards hammers are hard as crap, so I just don't really bother.


Everything's hard as crap until you force yourself to keep it doing it relentlessly. There was a time when I thought hammering (i.e. 12h14h16 or 12h14h15h17) was "Bloody impossible, like!", but now it's something I - and most likely everyone - can do in their sleep at warp speed. I haven't got reverse pulls down to said warp speed yet, but there's nothing stopping me from doing so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alter-Bridge
They don't sound smooth to me at all, because you're pausing so you can lift off your third finger (for example) to hammer down your first.


Not unless you're pausing for a veeery short duration. That's the whole idea - it's meant to be like liquid; seamless rolls with a smooth transition. If one hesitates whilst plonking the fingers down, it sounds clunky (kinda like a beginner trying to sweep, with each note being individually smacked). I've only ever heard Garsed, Holdsworth and Lane do it right consistently. Their legato playing seems to be based entirely on the technique.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothongz
I kinda feel hes a little overrated. Yes, he has an awesome legato technique and is a really smooth player, but is he really THAT good? I find players like Guthrie Govan, who plays just as technical stuff, much more listenable to, more melodic.

Maybe I haven't listened to enough of his songs, but it all just seems like soulless random playing.

Just my opinion *puts flame shield up*


Listening to Govan makes me feel cold and bored. His technique is obviously wonderful and he has a nice teaching style, but the music he actually plays just doesn't do anything for me at all. It's just clichéd emptiness. Very predictable playing with lots of "soul" and "emotion" that I've heard from countless 'cool' players before... but so terribly bland and boring.

Old fart Holdsworth, on the other hand, still makes me go "What the fuck did he just do there? How did he do that? What kind of note shift was that?!" I crave that in music - something which makes me jump out of my skin and wonder what just graced my ears. Only Holdsworth has ever managed to achieve that.

Technique-wise he's probably not the best since he all but shuns picking and is very locked into one particular style, but musically he's on a level which nobody can hope to understand or emulate. Lane came very close (with flawless technique to boot), but he still managed to sound like himself as opposed to an outright Holdsworth clone.

Subjectiveness.

Last edited by DaFjory : 09-30-2009 at 11:54 AM.
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Old 09-29-2009, 08:54 AM   #19
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I was procrastinating on YouTube and stumbled upon this video of Holdsworth


1. If that's Holdsworth's voice, he should try singing
2. He looks like Geddy Lee
3. His soloing is a bit less random here than on his solo works.
4. Choice guitar
5. Imagine Jaco with Holdsworth.
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Old 09-29-2009, 12:40 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaFjory
Listening to Govan makes me feel cold and bored. His technique is obviously wonderful and he has a nice teaching style, but the music he actually plays just doesn't do anything for me at all. It's just clichéd emptiness. Very predictable playing with lots of "soul" and "emotion" that I've heard from countless 'cool' players before... but so terribly bland and boring.


yes. Thank heavens for someone who actually agrees with me on this.

on a side note - there are some electric guitar players who I think are "untouchable". Holdsworth IS one of them. Satch himself said so.
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