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Old 11-03-2009, 11:39 AM   #81
canvasDude
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbosandwich
Yep, 1st fret B is middle C. You wouldn't believe how many people that confuses.


Then I'm assuming this is your head voice. If it isn't falsetto, then it definitely is.


For me, I can only feel falsetto resonating in my throat. I don't think falsetto resonates the same as the other registers.

It seems to me like you haven't "expanded" your range yet. You've "discovered" it. To me, expanding means doing the same thing over again for many weeks until it becomes comfortable, and easy to do. Discovering means finding different coordinations that let you sing higher. If your highest starting note is a G4, you'll be hitting high notes in no time.


Cool, so right now G2 to like C4 is really comfortable and natural. But whenever I sing and stop thinking about what I'm doing, I immediately go up an octave (sometimes 2) which really strains my voice and hurts my jaw. Does this mean that that's were I should set my goals for? 4th and 5th octaves? Or is there another reason why my voice is always sneaking its way up there?
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Old 11-03-2009, 01:18 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by canvasDude
Cool, so right now G2 to like C4 is really comfortable and natural. But whenever I sing and stop thinking about what I'm doing, I immediately go up an octave (sometimes 2) which really strains my voice and hurts my jaw. Does this mean that that's were I should set my goals for? 4th and 5th octaves? Or is there another reason why my voice is always sneaking its way up there?


You can sing up to a C6? That's pretty insane, but I definitely believe you. After all, when I first started SLS, I sang up to an E5 once.

If you can hit a note with strain, you can make it a comfortable, natural note. Work on taking off the tension, and you can go even higher. The following video has exercises to help take off tension. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccWTZKlKCSY&feature=fvw

This next video has some obvious, but useful tips.

I don't know if the talking higher thing helps or not, I'll get back to you on that.
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Old 11-03-2009, 01:39 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Jimbosandwich
You can sing up to a C6? That's pretty insane, but I definitely believe you. After all, when I first started SLS, I sang up to an E5 once.

If you can hit a note with strain, you can make it a comfortable, natural note. Work on taking off the tension, and you can go even higher. The following video has exercises to help take off tension. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccWTZKlKCSY&feature=fvw

This next video has some obvious, but useful tips.

I don't know if the talking higher thing helps or not, I'll get back to you on that.


Thanks, that helped a bit. In the first video you linked me to I could get all the scale notes in the beginning except for the ones after like 2:05. Although some of them just before 2:00 were straining. It's weird, like I can hit all the lows and highs in Rooster by AiC and a bunch of Moody Blues songs. But I can also hit most of the highs in Marching Bands of Manhattan by Death Cab for Cutie and Misty Mountain Hop by Led Zeppelin. So you said before maybe an extended baritone? Is that still fitting and when you say extended do you mean in both directions?
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Old 11-03-2009, 02:27 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by canvasDude
Thanks, that helped a bit. In the first video you linked me to I could get all the scale notes in the beginning except for the ones after like 2:05. Although some of them just before 2:00 were straining. It's weird, like I can hit all the lows and highs in Rooster by AiC and a bunch of Moody Blues songs. But I can also hit most of the highs in Marching Bands of Manhattan by Death Cab for Cutie and Misty Mountain Hop by Led Zeppelin. So you said before maybe an extended baritone? Is that still fitting and when you say extended do you mean in both directions?


You can extend in both directions, but high notes come easier than low notes.

And I no longer know what to call you. You're a jack of all trades. I guess I would say extended baritone due to the low notes, but you can call yourself whatever you want with a range like that.
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Old 11-03-2009, 02:52 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Jimbosandwich
You can extend in both directions, but high notes come easier than low notes.

And I no longer know what to call you. You're a jack of all trades. I guess I would say extended baritone due to the low notes, but you can call yourself whatever you want with a range like that.


That's a good thing i take it, lol. I feel the most comfortable in the 2nd and 3rd octaves, a little forced in 4th and strained to my limit i 5th (although with falsetto I can push it another octave maybe even a few semitones higher). Hopefully with practice and good habits I can get comfortable in the 4th and 5th octaves.
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Old 11-03-2009, 10:33 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Jimbosandwich
You can sing up to a C6? That's pretty insane, but I definitely believe you.


At pitch? Like, first string 20th fret? Without falsetto?

I don't believe you for even half a second. I have never heard that in my life.

Do you have a recording?

In fact, I'd even like to hear how clean your tenor C is.... first string 8th fret. Not many men can even sing *that* high, never mind a whole octave above that.

CT
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Old 11-03-2009, 10:37 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Jimbosandwich
I sang up to an E5 once.


In falsetto maybe?

I listened to your track on your profile. That is *not* a voice that will *ever* hit that note. That's not a criticism. I'm not sure Bruce Dickenson could hit that note, though he nails off a pretty convincing D just below that.

As in, first string 12th fret?

Nope.

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Old 11-03-2009, 10:40 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Jimbosandwich
So, when I'm singing scales, I can use my chest voice from about A2 to G4, then I can use my head voice to around the high C. Would that make me a tenor? I can go down to the G2, but it sounds terrible, and has no power.

Edit: In case it's relevant, there's no straining on the C5. It is a completely comfortable note, and my larynx doesn't even budge.


Recording? From what I hear in your profile, I'm guessing what happens is this....

Up to the G4, you are using your natural voice. To go up to the C, where you call it head voice, you're actually going into falsetto.

If that's the case, you're like 80% of male singers - baritone.

From your recording, your voice does not sound like one that is going to hit that tenor C.

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Old 11-03-2009, 10:43 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by canvasDude
Well, I can definitely hit the low E string and maybe a dropped D or C (MAYBE a B, but I really don't think so) and I can hit the high e if I strain. I might be able to get a few semitones higher with some practice, but I think the highest I remember going recently (with no falsetto, just head voice) is around 3rd or 4th fret high e. WITH falsetto I can hit as high as the 15th fret on the high e. So what would I be? I am not really sure if i would be a baritone or a low tenor maybe?


Sounds maybe bass.

A bass should be able to sing the dropped D, and sometimes the C below. If you're starting to strain around the E, that gives you about two octaves, from D-D. That would be bass.

A baritone should be able to nail the G on the first string in natural voice with well supported ease.

A tenor should be able to go upwards towards the high C. A true tenor will actually *hit* the C in full voice.

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Old 11-03-2009, 10:45 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by canvasDude
But I have this little kid head voice that I use when I joke around with friends that could get up to G4 with no falsetto. Speaking of which, I'm not sure but should I feel any resonance in my face or chest with falsetto? I don't, so that's what I'm calling falsetto at this point. It sounds like a woman opera singer. lol


Yep. That would be falsetto. If you need that to hit that G on the first string, you're definitely not a baritone. I'd say bass.

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Old 11-03-2009, 10:47 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by canvasDude
That's a good thing i take it, lol. I feel the most comfortable in the 2nd and 3rd octaves, a little forced in 4th and strained to my limit i 5th (although with falsetto I can push it another octave maybe even a few semitones higher). Hopefully with practice and good habits I can get comfortable in the 4th and 5th octaves.


Falsetto doesn't count when defining range. Most professional singers have little more than two usable octaves.

As soon as someone talks about three octaves, I become suspicious. Once they start talking four and five, I immediately dismiss them as an unreliable source.

http://thebelcantotechnique.now-her...id=17&Itemid=30

CT
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Old 11-03-2009, 11:33 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by axemanchris
In falsetto maybe?

I listened to your track on your profile. That is *not* a voice that will *ever* hit that note. That's not a criticism. I'm not sure Bruce Dickenson could hit that note, though he nails off a pretty convincing D just below that.

As in, first string 12th fret?

Nope.

CT




Did you HEAR how breathy I was singing? I could barely support a middle C like that, much less a tenor C. That recording's pretty irrelevant since it's from before I started taking lessons, much less starting SLS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by axemanchris
At pitch? Like, first string 20th fret? Without falsetto?

I don't believe you for even half a second. I have never heard that in my life.

Do you have a recording?

In fact, I'd even like to hear how clean your tenor C is.... first string 8th fret. Not many men can even sing *that* high, never mind a whole octave above that.

CT




I don't know the high note, but it's obviously above high C

Quote:
Originally Posted by axemanchris
Recording? From what I hear in your profile, I'm guessing what happens is this....

Up to the G4, you are using your natural voice. To go up to the C, where you call it head voice, you're actually going into falsetto.

If that's the case, you're like 80% of male singers - baritone.

From your recording, your voice does not sound like one that is going to hit that tenor C.

CT


I would LOVE to show you a recording of me hitting a high C in head voice, but I have no PC recording equipment. Do you accept VHS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by axemanchris
Falsetto doesn't count when defining range. Most professional singers have little more than two usable octaves.

As soon as someone talks about three octaves, I become suspicious. Once they start talking four and five, I immediately dismiss them as an unreliable source.

http://thebelcantotechnique.now-her...id=17&Itemid=30

CT


Once again,

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Old 11-04-2009, 08:28 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Jimbosandwich


Did you HEAR how breathy I was singing? I could barely support a middle C like that, much less a tenor C. That recording's pretty irrelevant since it's from before I started taking lessons, much less starting SLS.


Yes, I did hear that. In fact, that was what I based my assessment on. Since *very* few men can sing much, if any higher than tenor C, I'm going to go on the assumption that you're not one of the 1/1000+ that can hit the D above that, nevermind the E without proof.

Listen to Run to the Hills by Iron Maiden. Bruce Dickenson has probably the highest range of anyone in rock using his natural voice. (Brad Delp from Boston is up there too - though he uses a lot of falsetto, so people think he can actually sing higher - , along with Sebastian Bach from Skid Row) In the chorus, where he sings 'run for your life,' he hits a very convincing tenor C, and very briefly, the D above that. It's a bit squeaky, but doesn't yet sound falsetto. People often use him as a bench mark when comparing men who can sing high. The reason for that is that so few men have that kind of upper range.

And you can sing higher than that in full voice? I want proof, or as I say, I'm not going to believe that you're that one in well over a thousand male singers. How bout put on Run to the Hills and just sing along and record it with a web cam? Does your mp3 player have voice record? A lot of them do.

Oh, and when he screams up to the G (first string 18th fret) at the very end, that's falsetto. Doesn't count.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbosandwich





Meh..... he can hit an impressive range of notes, but that's not his range. Sure, he can hit notes I'll never be able to hit, but most of it was useless.

Those really low notes below the bass register.... they're not usable. They sound awful and weak. Yeah, they're 'there' but if a note is not usable, it should not be considered part of your range. Would you like to listen to him sing a song using those notes? I wouldn't.

And then, once he gets not much further beyond the middle of the keyboard, he's in falsetto. Again.... not considered part of a person's range. So he has somewhere in the 'almost-three' octave range, I would guess. Quite frankly, it's not worth it to me to analyze the notes he's singing and determine useful and falsetto and 'natural' voice to be any more precise than that. It's pretty pointless.

In fact, it's quite similar to that Georgia Brown that is referenced in that link. Did you read that?

Now, if you're thinking that those notes are part of his range because they're not falsetto, (you did quote a couple of my statements about falsetto as you went on to support your points) that would explain why you think you can hit that high E and even the C an octave above tenor C. It would suggest that your knowledge of falsetto is a little dodgy and not quite clear enough to distinguish between falsetto as well as you will one day be able to.

CT
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Old 11-04-2009, 08:57 AM   #94
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That Singing Success video is HILARIOUS! OMG! Too funny! Plz tell me ur secretz!
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Old 11-04-2009, 09:52 AM   #95
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Could you take a listen at my clips on my profile to determine my voice type, axemanchris? I think I might be a bass, or maybe a bass-baritone, eventhough the tonal quality might not really be that of a bass(-baritone).

Thanks!

EDIT:

There's some vocal fry in there, only did that for fun. I know it doesn't count, and I probably would never sing in that "register" .
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Old 11-04-2009, 02:39 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by axemanchris
Yes, I did hear that. In fact, that was what I based my assessment on. Since *very* few men can sing much, if any higher than tenor C, I'm going to go on the assumption that you're not one of the 1/1000+ that can hit the D above that, nevermind the E without proof.


Is it really that low? 1/1000 sounds a tad crazy, I can just barely belt out a high D without falsetto (on a good day) and I've only been singing about 2 years. I listen to quite a few bands who have singers who can also go that high, sometimes a semi-tone or two on top as well.
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Old 11-04-2009, 06:17 PM   #97
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Well, I went back to my guitar and I can't hit below a dropped D on the low E string (even that sounds a bit fake... like a woman doing a man impression). But, I can comfortably sing from the G on the 6th string (G2?) to the high e. I can hit as high as the G (G# on a pretty good day) on the high e, but it's fairly strained. So while I may still be a bass or low baritone, do you think it's possible to make those strained notes on the high e comfortable? Is it possible to extend my range a few notes, maybe up to high C (8th fret high e). I feel like with a lot of songs by led zep, the darkness, a skylit drive, etc.; I'm just inches away from hitting some of those high notes. Like my voice will just sound like I'm pushing out air without any real power or volume. So what do think? If you know any exercises or anything of that sort that may help, I'd really appreciate some links or advice.
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Old 11-04-2009, 07:08 PM   #98
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Could you take a listen at my clips on my profile to determine my voice type, axemanchris? I think I might be a bass, or maybe a bass-baritone, eventhough the tonal quality might not really be that of a bass(-baritone).

Thanks!

EDIT:

There's some vocal fry in there, only did that for fun. I know it doesn't count, and I probably would never sing in that "register" .


Will do. I'll have to do that later when I'm on a computer with proper speakers.

CT
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Old 11-04-2009, 07:15 PM   #99
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Is it really that low? 1/1000 sounds a tad crazy, I can just barely belt out a high D without falsetto (on a good day) and I've only been singing about 2 years. I listen to quite a few bands who have singers who can also go that high, sometimes a semi-tone or two on top as well.


Apparently, one singer in ten is a tenor. Out of those tenors, they will hit the tenor C with varying degrees of effectiveness. Someone who can truly hit that high C *well*, will be a statistic out of that one in ten. Dunno what, but maybe.... one in 25? When you go see an opera, or if you go see Iron Maiden or whatever, when the singer hits that high C, it's an event. If a full ten percent of us could do it, and do it well, it wouldn't be such a money shot.

Now, for each semitone above that, the porportion becomes even less so, and not on a sliding scale. It would be a logarithmic scale. Go Youtube tenor high notes or whatever and see how few men actually hit anything above that. It is *so* rare.

Now, whether it is 1/1000 or whatever..... I really don't know. But the likes of Bruce Dickenson (D above tenor C) certainly don't come along every day. Pavarotti can do the high C, but I don't know if he goes higher or not. I think I heard that Domingo can really only hit a convincing Bb or something.

CT
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Old 11-04-2009, 09:10 PM   #100
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So I checked out some breathing exercises. They helped a lot and I learned to relax my body and throat, which made trying to hit those high notes a whole lot less painful.

After I did those steps for a little while, I picked up my guitar again and guess what? I was more comfortable on the low E than before and a whole lot more comfortable in the 3rd and 4th octaves than in my last post. I was able to hit a B5 and just almost squeeze out a C5, but was unsuccessful. And when I sung the B5, it was weak enough that the resonance in my face was fainter than usual. I think if I could get more power behind my voice in general (even in my comfortable range it's not super loud or powerful, but not weak), I could really improve my voice and be able to count the B5 as part of my range without any doubts. I guess I should just keep practicing and form good habits like some of the threads in this forum state. Any advice or anyone who has gone through this? I really appreciate all the helpful info you guys have given me; sorry for the wall of text.
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