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Old 01-11-2010, 01:27 AM   #41
kevinmask
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@axeman chris here is the proof about BJ armstrong

this is a damn hard song for a baritone, the last chorus especially, anyway at 3:16 he screams a full B4, I think it's just a scream, he does a lot of that anyway, but his voice always remains intact, at the end of this video he sings a full voice A4 at 4.33 when he says EEEEOOOOO

here's a a we're the champion cover, an half step down compared to the original but he sings a pretty good full A4 during the chorus (mercury's version would sing a B flat)


here at 1:00 you can here his screaming singing, he sings the first part of highway to hell half step down compared to the original , but yet the central note is a G#4 and the highest a B4

in all these clips above he sounds nothing like a baritone, maybe you cover his discography till warning, cause in the new album you really need a damn good agility from the range which goes from a F4 to a A4, tell me what you think.

Last edited by kevinmask : 01-11-2010 at 01:31 AM.
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Old 01-11-2010, 01:49 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by axemanchris
It sort of falls into that no-man's land between baritone and bass. Generally speaking, a baritone is not asked to sing below the G, so if a part called for an E2, it would be a bass who would be asked to sing it.

that would expain a lot for me actually. in the range thread, i was told im a bass because of the E2. when i looked up vocal ranges, they tend to show bass STARTING at E2. but i always thought they would go lower than that. i can hit a Eb and a D below E2 on a good day. but i would probably never actually use them in a song.


Quote:
This is all true. I'm instantly suspicious of anyone who claims to have a three octave range. Pretty much invariably, they are including falsetto when they say this. I mean, really..... a person can sing the lowest E string on the guitar all the way up to the top E at the 12th fret all in full voice? Yeah, right. Whatever. In fact, Bruce Dickenson sings a D above tenor C in the chorus of run to the hills, but when he gets the G at the end, he needs to go into falsetto. He has an exceptionally high voice. I'm curious if you can name an example of someone who can sing, say, the E above tenor C in full voice. AFAIK, I have yet to hear it.

that would actually be 4 octaves. 3 would be low E, second fret D string, and high e string. 12th fret high e would be a 4th octave and probably would be sung falsetto. the highest note ive tried was the high falstto part in "i was made to love her" by stevie wonder, in the little break down part. i cant remember but i think its an F, i might be wrong.
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Old 01-11-2010, 08:33 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Blind In 1 Ear
that would actually be 4 octaves. 3 would be low E, second fret D string, and high e string. 12th fret high e would be a 4th octave and probably would be sung falsetto. the highest note ive tried was the high falstto part in "i was made to love her" by stevie wonder, in the little break down part. i cant remember but i think its an F, i might be wrong.


That's two octaves. The first is from E2 to E3. The second is from E3 to E4. The third would be from E4 to E5. That is how octaves are measured when referring to range. You have to be able to sing the full octave, not just the lowest note.
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Old 01-11-2010, 08:55 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by kevinmask
@axeman chris here is the proof about BJ armstrong

this is a damn hard song for a baritone, the last chorus especially, anyway at 3:16 he screams a full B4, I think it's just a scream, he does a lot of that anyway, but his voice always remains intact, at the end of this video he sings a full voice A4 at 4.33 when he says EEEEOOOOO


Okay, where he yells "hallelujia" - yes, it is a B, but his voice breaks up into a rattly holler so it doesn't count. But, indeed, that last note at the end is an A.

Thus I don't doubt that he would sing an A elsewhere either.

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Originally Posted by kevinmask
in all these clips above he sounds nothing like a baritone, maybe you cover his discography till warning, cause in the new album you really need a damn good agility from the range which goes from a F4 to a A4, tell me what you think.


We have stuff from Dookie to 21st Century Breakdown (Know Your Enemy, East Jesus Nowhere). Yes, he is good from the F4 to the A4, but needs to scream and break up his voice to get anything beyond, which makes him a baritone.

I'm not suggesting for a moment he's not a decent singer, but I have yet to hear proof he can even come close to the tenor C, so he's not a tenor. Add to that the fact that *most* of his singing is in a comfortable baritone range, and it's pretty indisputable that he is not a tenor.

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Old 01-11-2010, 11:55 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by axemanchris
Okay, where he yells "hallelujia" - yes, it is a B, but his voice breaks up into a rattly holler so it doesn't count. But, indeed, that last note at the end is an A.

Thus I don't doubt that he would sing an A elsewhere either.



We have stuff from Dookie to 21st Century Breakdown (Know Your Enemy, East Jesus Nowhere). Yes, he is good from the F4 to the A4, but needs to scream and break up his voice to get anything beyond, which makes him a baritone.

I'm not suggesting for a moment he's not a decent singer, but I have yet to hear proof he can even come close to the tenor C, so he's not a tenor. Add to that the fact that *most* of his singing is in a comfortable baritone range, and it's pretty indisputable that he is not a tenor.

CT


yeah but the broken up voice is not easy to do either, if I screamed I wouldn't go beyond a G4 just the same, yeah you might say that he's a better singer than me, and you'd be right, but I don't think I'll ever be able to scream those notes, no matter what I do(classes, practising etc) all what'd happen is me scorching my throat with a crappy G4 anda damaging my cords permanently, so I think it's in his anatomy, nobody would teach you to scream like that, and yet the A4 is a note that I don't have, neither sung nor screamed, so what am I? a bass? don't think so, I just happened to be a 2 octaves baritone, I never heard billie joe going lower than a B2, so if he's a real baritone he has at least 2 octaves and a half singable without counting the screamed notes, but I'm more in the opinion that he's a low tenor (which is not the same as the high baritone)

interesting the thing you said that most of his repertoire is in a comfortable baritone range, but I'd like to list a couple of exceptions

if you hear the first album smoothed out slappy hours it's all very highish, and he sounds like a tenor cause his timbre is very bright, well he was 17 back then and live he always played those songs half step down so his tessitura might have backed up a little.

jesus of suburbia, holiday, 21st century breakdown, american eulogy, before the lobotomy, static age (the one above), and even east jesus nowhere are not in a confortable baritonal range cause the top end of the baritone is persistently milked in those songs, and I personally can't sing them fully in a live.

yeah from kerkplunk to warning songs are pretty much baritonal and can be sung by anyone I guess, but from american idiot to 21st century breakdown his songs got highish compared to the past

Last edited by kevinmask : 01-11-2010 at 12:06 PM.
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Old 01-11-2010, 04:38 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by isaac_bandits
That's two octaves. The first is from E2 to E3. The second is from E3 to E4. The third would be from E4 to E5. That is how octaves are measured when referring to range. You have to be able to sing the full octave, not just the lowest note.

right, sorry. i was just thinking in terms of the notes. so i guess i wouldnt have a 3 octave range but more like 2 and some. going into the 3rd octave is more falsetto. i can fill it out though but i think im almost belting when i do so i dont hink that counts in my range. there are songs i can sing in 3 different octaves though so i guess i got a little confused
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Old 01-11-2010, 10:53 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by kevinmask
yeah but the broken up voice is not easy to do either,


... except it is what typically happens when you try to sing a note that you can't actually reach to sing.

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Originally Posted by kevinmask
and yet the A4 is a note that I don't have, neither sung nor screamed, so what am I? a bass? don't think so,


From your description here, you would certainly not be a bass. A bass tops out around middle C or so. A tenor tops out on the C an octave above that. A baritone typically tops out around the G in between. So, from your description of your upper range, you would be a baritone, like 80% of the rest of us.

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Originally Posted by kevinmask
I just happened to be a 2 octaves baritone,


No prob there. That's pretty much me too. Two octaves and a bit. Great.

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Originally Posted by kevinmask
I never heard billie joe going lower than a B2, so if he's a real baritone he has at least 2 octaves and a half singable without counting the screamed notes,


B2.... that's fifth string second fret. Assuming he can sing a little lower than that, but like most of us, knows that your lowest usable note still isn't very good, then he can probably sing the open A string. He can sing the A above middle C without breaking up. That means that he has a two octave range and lies almost exactly in the textbook baritone range. (which is G to G)

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Originally Posted by kevinmask
but I'm more in the opinion that he's a low tenor (which is not the same as the high baritone),


That would really be taking a lot of liberty with the use of the word 'tenor.' Sometimes a baritone with a range up to an A or Bb or so is called a "choral tenor" (as choral music doesn't tend to place the same demands on singers as an operatic aria, for instance, you don't nearly as often have to nail that high C). They are also sometimes called "pop tenors." But in the truest sense of the word, unless you can at least hit the B natural, calling yourself a tenor is really pushing it. The A is closer to the typical baritone range - much closer - than it is to a tenor.

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Originally Posted by kevinmask
interesting the thing you said that most of his repertoire is in a comfortable baritone range, but I'd like to list a couple of exceptions

if you hear the first album smoothed out slappy hours it's all very highish, and he sounds like a tenor cause his timbre is very bright, well he was 17 back then and live he always played those songs half step down so his tessitura might have backed up a little.


Okay, I'll fess up here and suggest you're probably a bigger GD fan than I am. I don't think I've heard anything prior to Dookie.

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Originally Posted by kevinmask
jesus of suburbia, holiday, 21st century breakdown, american eulogy, before the lobotomy, static age (the one above), and even east jesus nowhere are not in a confortable baritonal range .


I've sang Jesus of Suburbia and East Jesus Nowhere. Neither of them cause me any strain or difficulty. The others I'm not familiar enough to say, but based on the premise that, so far, we have no evidence of him *singing* anything higher than an A, it is fairer to say that he is a high baritone much more so than any breed of "proper" tenor.

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Originally Posted by kevinmask
cause the top end of the baritone is persistently milked in those songs, and I personally can't sing them fully in a live.


So it sounds like you top out around the G or the G#. If the *very odd* time, the song involves an A, then it is only the very odd time that any GD should cause you any difficulty.

The possible exception to that is if you are not producing your voice correctly and you have to strain to get the G/G#, in which case, those notes might not be reliable either. It sounds like you're a baritone, but you find the *odd* note just out of your range. I wouldn't sweat that.

But when I think tenor, I think the likes of Bruce Dickenson, Brad Delp, Freddie Mercury, etc. Those guys whose voices very few singers can reach. As I say, in the chorus of Run to the Hills, where Dickenson sings "run for your li-i-ife," he goes up and hits a solid tenor C, and even just for a smidge kisses the D above that. Holy crap. Those are high notes for a man. Mind you, most tenors can't get that D. It almost seems that it is a physical limitation of the male voice that, as soon as you get to that tenor C, there are very, very, very few who can actually exceed it in full voice.

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Old 01-12-2010, 12:24 AM   #48
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lol Chris you mention that Iron Maiden chorus in almost every post

I'm still gonna say the high C isn't quite as rare for a trained singer in full voice as you make it out to be, but our definitions of falsetto and "full" voice are probably so different we're not gonna be on the same page.
I've always wondered though, if classical terminology says that you can blend your chest/head register with falsetto how can you tell when a note is falsetto and when it's not? especially on something like a smooth vocal slide going through that A/Bb/B passagio for a tenor
course I might be mis-interpreting what you've said before about this issue or confusing it with something else I read, sorry if that's the case

BTW correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Freddie more of a high baritone/low tenor? He had some crazy low notes as well as those high C and above belted notes he was known for. I think he went down to a low F on a couple of songs, course it sounded very weak below the low G/A
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Old 01-12-2010, 12:30 AM   #49
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@axemanchris: I have a green day tribute too as a singer, so that makes myself pretty much a fan, anyway, I'll give you more details about my range and voice:

My full range is E2-G4 (I can't really say I hit the G#4 cause it happens rarely and when it does it's not kept for longer than 1 second) when my voice gets warmed up well enough I lose a little bit of my lower range so the E2 becomes more of an F flat, and the lower note which begins to have a good body is the G2, as for my upper range once I get warmed up I can hit a good E4, beyond the E4 everything starts to feel heavy, I can hit a good G4 yes, but if a song always goes around notes like F4, F#4 and G4 (like jesus of suburbia does) I get tired and feel fatigue so I have no choice but stop cause my throat shrinks and gets strangled, and you can imagine the result, I sound like a slaughtered chicken, so I don't know what I should do, teachers always suggested me avoid milking my top end in full songs cause I'm not a tenor, and a baritone lacks of a agility in the E4-G4 range, so what can I say? if you have any tips.... (I quit taking classes cause they weren't so much of a help)

Quote:
... except it is what typically happens when you try to sing a note that you can't actually reach to sing.


never happens to me as I said, he sounds raspy but never forced, he still has a great voice and hits those notes just fine, if I tried to scream so high I would just ruin my voice and the result would be breaking into a girly falsetto, but yet the last decent note is a G4 even screaming. I was always told that I'm a high baritone but at this point, if your assuming is right, I'm a plain baritone and billie is the real high baritone, his A4 is very good and to me he can go further keeping the same cleanliness, I'm in the opinion that he screams those notes for stylistic issues, not because he can't, that's my humble opinion but I guess if the A4 was his last note he'd really sound forced and raspy already, but it doesn't, it's very full and clean.

Quote:
So it sounds like you top out around the G or the G#. If the *very odd* time, the song involves an A, then it is only the very odd time that any GD should cause you any difficulty.
90% of GD songs don't cause me any difficult, but the songs I listed in my previous post cause me a lot of trouble so I've decided to keep the dookie tuning (half step down) even in songs normally played in standard tuning, hence I can sing the 99% of their songs with no effort, yet the song "static age" is freaking hard even half step down cause in the last chorus he keeps hitting a G4 over and over, at that point my throat shrinks and closes up.
I'd be happy if I could develop a good agility from E4 to G4, in that case I could cover many of the songs I like, that'd be enough for now, but it still feels hard and I don't know what to do in order to get over this obstacle, the A4 is a very far good candy unfortunately, but I always thought that the A4 as the toppest high end is what you need for a good agility within the G4, and that's what probably BJ has, he hits the A4 rarely but owning that note would cause him to sing up to the G4 G#4 at will and effortless
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Old 01-12-2010, 12:33 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Cheeseman07
lol Chris you mention that Iron Maiden chorus in almost every post

I'm still gonna say the high C isn't quite as rare for a trained singer in full voice as you make it out to be, but our definitions of falsetto and "full" voice are probably so different we're not gonna be on the same page.
I've always wondered though, if classical terminology says that you can blend your chest/head register with falsetto how can you tell when a note is falsetto and when it's not? especially on something like a smooth vocal slide going through that A/Bb/B passagio for a tenor
course I might be mis-interpreting what you've said before about this issue or confusing it with something else I read, sorry if that's the case

BTW correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Freddie more of a high baritone/low tenor? He had some crazy low notes as well as those high C and above belted notes he was known for. I think he went down to a low F on a couple of songs, course it sounded very weak below the low G/A

freddie mercury covered the tenor register and the countertenor (close to the Alto female register) he could hit a few baritonal notes but didn't have so much sustain, so he was no baritone, nor low tenor
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Old 01-12-2010, 08:15 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Cheeseman07
lol Chris you mention that Iron Maiden chorus in almost every post...I'm still gonna say the high C isn't quite as rare for a trained singer in full voice as you make it out to be,


Yeah, I do. But it's an example that everybody pretty much knows, and a high tenor C in full voice is rare enough that people need an example of how to distinguish that from someone hitting it in falsetto.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheeseman07
but our definitions of falsetto and "full" voice are probably so different we're not gonna be on the same page.


That may well be the case.

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Originally Posted by Cheeseman07
I've always wondered though, if classical terminology says that you can blend your chest/head register with falsetto how can you tell when a note is falsetto and when it's not? especially on something like a smooth vocal slide going through that A/Bb/B passagio for a tenor


To me, if it sounds falsetto, it IS falsetto. Listen to Iron Maiden. That's full, rich, and powerful. The richness of tone is there, whereas in falsetto, it lacks those overtones. YouTube Pavarotti and high C or something. Again, the power, fullness, and richness are there. You can hear it.

Now, if you're listening to Run to the Hills anyways.... keep listening. The very last note of the song where he sings "life" on the G above the tenor C is falsetto. You can hear the difference in richness of tone. Suddenly, it just lacks that robustness and has become very thin. It's still powerful, but just lacks that robustness of tone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheeseman07
BTW correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Freddie more of a high baritone/low tenor? He had some crazy low notes as well as those high C and above belted notes he was known for. I think he went down to a low F on a couple of songs, course it sounded very weak below the low G/A


Quite honestly, I'd have to go back and listen to his stuff a little more analytically. I know I've attempted some of his stuff with mixed success at best. Tie Your Mother Down spends 80% of the song living up around the A above middle C. I can't remember if it goes much beyond that. I really had to be warmed up to get that song. I know some of his stuff goes higher than that. I figure if I'm a high baritone and he leaves me thinking, "holy crap, that's too high for me" then he must be a tenor. His low notes don't really stand out readily in my mind.

@kevin - I'll finish responding later. I have to get off to work.

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Old 01-12-2010, 11:31 AM   #52
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:
@kevin - I'll finish responding later. I have to get off to work.

CT

alright

as for freddie mercury I can confirm tie your mother down has the A4 as central note, the rest is higher or slightly lower, princes of the universe is even higher and many others, his songs all lie in the 4th and 5th octave so he cannot bea baritone at all, besides, his voice is very high even when he speaks, anyway, he proved to have 3 octaves in chest voice, and could go up and reach soprano notes in falsetto and head voice.

So far the only baritones I know are:

Eddie Vedder
James Hetfield
Phil D'anselmo
David Coverdale
Ian Gillan
Axl Rose
Elvis Presley (tho I'm not quite sure cause his C#5 sounds very clean and powerful)
Iggy pop
Ville Valo
Eric Clapton
David Bowie
Jim Morrison
Billie Joe Armstrong?
Jimi hendrix
Steve Ray Vaughan

Last edited by kevinmask : 01-12-2010 at 11:33 AM.
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Old 01-12-2010, 12:33 PM   #53
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At the end of the day, it doesn't really make a difference, in my mind. If it sounds good, it doesn't really make a difference how the sound is produced. I don't think anyone would call foul on Jeff Buckley for using falsetto.
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Old 01-12-2010, 07:38 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by axemanchris
:To me, if it sounds falsetto, it IS falsetto. Listen to Iron Maiden. That's full, rich, and powerful. The richness of tone is there, whereas in falsetto, it lacks those overtones. YouTube Pavarotti and high C or something. Again, the power, fullness, and richness are there. You can hear it.

Now, if you're listening to Run to the Hills anyways.... keep listening. The very last note of the song where he sings "life" on the G above the tenor C is falsetto. You can hear the difference in richness of tone. Suddenly, it just lacks that robustness and has become very thin. It's still powerful, but just lacks that robustness of tone.


What I really meant was, if a singer who's blended his registers well does a slide from a note that's obviously a note in full voice to a high note past their last passagio that you would call falsetto if you heard the high note alone, how can you tell when he makes the transition? especially if it's a very smooth slide like at 2:28 in this song:


or of you wanna hear it rawer without the studio magic it's also around 2:30 here:


IIRC he goes up to a high D and briefly touching on the Eb above it, but the smooth slide and just how powerful it sounds makes it sound like full voice to me, what would you say?
edit: oops he doesn't hit the high Eb here, but he does with the same tone and power in another song

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Old 01-13-2010, 04:33 AM   #55
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anyway in the world population baritones may outnumber tenors by a ratio of about 8:1 as someone said, but among singers it's the opposite, tenors outnumber baritones, people with high voices get to sing more easily according to many experts who stated that thin vocal cords vibrate more easily than thick ones that require more air and efforts, that might explain why tenors are the majority, therefore baritones who get to sing have a harder path to hit.

Here are the tenors that I know, definitely a longer list compared to the one I posted before:

freddie mercury
sting
bono vox
steve wonder
robert plant
glen hughes
brian johnson
bonn scott
paul di anno
bruce dickinson
johnny winter
steven tyler
brian adams
joe cocker
chad kroeger
jared leto
michael jackson
robbie williams
george michael
paul stanley
ronny james dio
ozzy osbourne
kevin dubrow
twisted sisters
vince neil
the beatles
mick jagger
all "the who" members
James Labrie
Bon Jovi
johnny rotten
dexter holland
kurt kobain
elton john
paul rodger
robben ford
mark ford



I can go on forever, but I guess I'll stop for now

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Old 01-13-2010, 01:28 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinmask
anyway in the world population baritones may outnumber tenors by a ratio of about 8:1 as someone said, but among singers it's the opposite, tenors outnumber baritones, people with high voices get to sing more easily according to many experts who stated that thin vocal cords vibrate more easily than thick ones that require more air and efforts, that might explain why tenors are the majority, therefore baritones who get to sing have a harder path to hit.

Here are the tenors that I know, definitely a longer list compared to the one I posted before:

freddie mercury
sting
bono vox
steve wonder
robert plant
glen hughes
brian johnson
bonn scott
paul di anno
bruce dickinson
johnny winter
steven tyler
brian adams
joe cocker
chad kroeger
jared leto
michael jackson
robbie williams
george michael
paul stanley
ronny james dio
ozzy osbourne
kevin dubrow
twisted sisters
vince neil
the beatles
mick jagger
all "the who" members
James Labrie
Bon Jovi
johnny rotten
dexter holland
kurt kobain
elton john
paul rodger
robben ford
mark ford



I can go on forever, but I guess I'll stop for now


Many of those examples are/were not tenors. It's commonly known that Freddie Mercury was actually a baritone, but sang in the tenor range. If you mean Bono from U2, he is naturally quite a deep baritone. Chad Kroeger, baritone. George Harrison was a baritone. I'm pretty sure Roger Daltrey is a baritone. Same for Kurt Cobain. Those are only ones I'm fairly certain about, there may be others. You can generally tell someone's classical register by the tonality of their speaking voice (basses are often an exception.) I'm suspecting we have a different understanding of how many of these vocalists are producing their tenor range notes, so I'm feeling like it would be pointless to continue this.
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Old 01-13-2010, 02:45 PM   #57
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im pretty sure at least half of those are actually baritones or high baritones. im pretty sure none of the beatles were tenors. i havent heard them sing anything that seems really tenor only,
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Old 01-13-2010, 04:36 PM   #58
Damascus
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Originally Posted by Blind In 1 Ear
im pretty sure at least half of those are actually baritones or high baritones. im pretty sure none of the beatles were tenors. i havent heard them sing anything that seems really tenor only,


Someone bought me a book with the sheet music (arranged for piano/voice) for every Beatle's song on record in it - there is not a single melody in it that I've seen that suggests the singer is a tenor. The highest notes in almost every single song I've played out of that book group around the G above high C.

That list is, as people have been saying, at least half-full of baritones. What's the point of this repetative argument you [kevinmask] have about the number of tenors in music? Either accept the standard definition of tenor/baritone/bass (in which case you're wrong) or go ahead and use your own (which just leads to stupid, repetative arguments like this).

I'm fully prepared to accept - not having a great deal of knowledge about most singer's ranges - that there are proportionally more tenors in the music business than the general population, but to the extent that you're trying to argue? It's ridiculous. People are consistently pointing out that singers you're classifying as tenors are actually baritones. Give it up.
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Old 01-13-2010, 05:37 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Damascus
Someone bought me a book with the sheet music (arranged for piano/voice) for every Beatle's song on record in it - there is not a single melody in it that I've seen that suggests the singer is a tenor. The highest notes in almost every single song I've played out of that book group around the G above high C.


I think you mean the G above middle C. When I've sung beatles covers the highest it ever goes is the G4, and I'm sure of that because its always a semitone too high.
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Old 01-13-2010, 06:50 PM   #60
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I believe Paul McCartney was a tenor, but none of the other beatles were
the guy can go pretty ****ing high, and even though a lot of his top notes are screamed they still have that bright tenor sound to them
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