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Old 01-13-2010, 07:09 PM   #61
kevinmask
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well guys I give up! I don't see the point why you keep saying those people are actually baritones while they always had a very bright voice and sang very high songs, there's no way a baritone can sing queen's songs or the other band/singers I've mentioned, I really dare you sing those songs if you're baritones, but even if you're tenors you won't be able to sing so high unless you're well trained, if they sing in a tenor range it means they are tenors, freddie mercury can't be a baritone, it's listed as a countertenor anywhere, his bass notes lack of body, while his highs are powerfull and often higher than an A4 and most of his repertoire is very high EVEN FOR WOMEN, so please dont blart out bullshit if you don't know the half of it, cause I'm pretty sure those who say "most rock singers are actually baritones" never even tried to sing one rock song in their life nor taken a single singing class.

well I suggest you guys read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baritone

it's pretty clear about the notes that a baritone can cover and what kind of timbre they have ,so it's a non sense to say singers that have the 90% of their repertoire around the G4 A4 B4 and C5 in full voice are baritones, especially when their voice timbre is very high and girly, baritones have a dark and thick sound, unlike freddie mercury, sting etc.

Beatles are tenors, Paul Mccartney is a very high tenor and sing higher than a G4, the only alleged baritone is ringo star, but I'm not even too sure about that.

Another thing, if a singer never sings the high C doesn't mean he's a baritone, a tenor is not compelled to sing his higher notes just because he's a tenor, some tenors for stylistic purposes don't sing higher than a G4 but that doesn' make him a baritone.

Chad Kroeger and Kurt Kobain are not baritones, don't make them fool you cause they have a raspy voice, their voice are really raspy but bright.

Bono Vox often sings a very good tenor high C (see pride in the name of love,) so why should he be a baritone? a baritone doesn't have the high C, and even tenors very rarely touch that note cause it's the point where well trained tenors top, the others top much earlier, the high C is the highest tenor note, and it's hard even for them, so I don't see why a guy who sings the high C has to be a baritone for you.

I think most of you guys are very confused about voice categories, the best way to understand that is singing, I really doubt you guys can cover the artists I've listed as tenors, cause they are actually even higher than an ordinary tenor, singers like sting, mercury, jackson, bonn scott, stewe wonder are even closer to the Alto voice than the Tenor.

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Old 01-13-2010, 07:45 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinmask
I think most of you guys are very confused about voice categories, the best way to understand that is singing, I really doubt you guys can cover the artists I've listed as tenors, cause they are actually even higher than an ordinary tenor, singers like sting, mercury, jackson, bonn scott, stewe wonder are even closer to the Alto voice than the Tenor.


Really, look up your stuff first. Alto is a part in choral music. It is not a voice type. The female tessituras are contralto, mezzo-soprano, and soprano. Even if a man is singing in one of those ranges he wouldn't even be called by the female terms, because they are only for females. A man singing above the tenor range is just a countertenor.
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Old 01-13-2010, 07:50 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by isaac_bandits
Really, look up your stuff first. Alto is a part in choral music. It is not a voice type. The female tessituras are contralto, mezzo-soprano, and soprano. Even if a man is singing in one of those ranges he wouldn't even be called by the female terms, because they are only for females. A man singing above the tenor range is just a countertenor.


Alto and Contralto is the same thing, countertenor is the male voice that covers the alto/contralto range but still with a male timbre, which is the case of mercury, sting, jackson, wonder and most of hard rock singers, some of them are actually tenors leggeros (see robert plant) which is the highest tenor tessitura, but they are always pushed to the countertenor range by using techniques such as falsettone and head voice.

edit: here are the details http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countertenor

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Old 01-13-2010, 08:04 PM   #64
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I'm starting to lose interest here too.

Couple of things... Bono in "Pride" hits a convincing B. Not a C, but for me, far enough beyond the baritone range that I can accept his labeling as a tenor.

A person's range is defined by what they *can* sing, as opposed to what they *do* sing, yes. But, particularly for high notes, it is human nature for people to want to show what they can do. If they never do it, how are we to know? In light of the absence of evidence, we kinda have to assume that, if someone like Chad Kroeger or whatever, never sings beyond an A, that they probably can't.

A female contralto is often called an alto. Kinda like how someone who plays the violincello is said to play the cello, or someone who plays double-bass is said to play the bass. But men are never altos or sopranos. Boys, yes. Men... no.

Even in pop music, tenors are rare. McCartney might be one, but the rest of the Beatles... no. We are fooled into thinking people are tenors because of mislabeling by the ignorant, brightness on the high end of the voice (which gives the illusion that the person is singing higher than they actually are.... kinda like the opposite of Pavarotti, where his voice is so rich, people hear him sing the high C and think "yeah, I could probably sing that high".... and then they try and fail....haha), and a propensity for those baritones with brighter voices to sing higher in their ranges.

IMHO, to be a tenor, singing the A is not "close enough." That's a text-book baritone plus one note. A tenor should at least come pretty damned close to getting that C. Sure, if you include all those people who can sing A's to be tenors, then yes, there are tons of 'em. The reason they are so rare is that, given the conventional definition, not many people are physically able to reach those notes. Hence, the 8:1 ratio.

And, in the end, I do agree with chaingarden in that, regardless of what you call it, if it sounds good, it IS good. Brian Johnson is a technically horrible horrible horrible singer. I love AC/DC and Johnson's voice. Meh.... what can you say to that?

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Old 01-13-2010, 08:23 PM   #65
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[QUOTE=axemanchris]I'm starting to lose interest here too.


Quote:
A person's range is defined by what they *can* sing, as opposed to what they *do* sing, yes. But, particularly for high notes, it is human nature for people to want to show what they can do. If they never do it, how are we to know? In light of the absence of evidence, we kinda have to assume that, if someone like Chad Kroeger or whatever, never sings beyond an A, that they probably can't.


who told you chad kroeger never sung higher than an A4? in "this is how you remind me" he hits a B4 during the chorus, and in many other songs he does, and he's listed as a low tenor in his book, same as kobain, I don't agree with what you just said that singers tend to give the max, we talked a lot about billie joe amrstrong and he's the proof that a singers who never goes higher than a G4 for years doesn't mean they cant go beyond, now billie sings a lot of G#4 A4 and B4, screaming but he does a good job with those notes just like brian johnson, there's a big industry behind music, and often singers do what they are told to for stylistic purposes, punk rock never really required high notes, so I don't see why a tenor has to be pushed to the limit only because he can, joey ramone is an example, he was a tenor but lacked of technique and never went higher than a G4, not all the tenors out there are well trained or naturally gifted, and an untrained tenor remains a "choral tenor" speaking about vocal ranges, so an A4 is often where an untrained tenor tops, the high C is not something that comes off the tree, even a tenor has to work hard to obtain the high C, let alone a very good high C, Pavarotti didn't have the High C the day he started to take singing classes, he got a lot of training in order to build it.

Brian May from queen can be a very fast lead guitarist, but never exploited his speed skiils at max cause he kinda ended up plaing pop songs in the latest queen's career where speed is not required, same things for singers, they sing what they have to, and many of them don't exploit their full range for "stylistic requirements" (like billie joe did, but he now showed to be able to sing a B4) , plus singing high has nothing to do with skills as we said at the beginning of this thread, in my opinion you can recognize whether someone is a tenor or a baritone by the way they sing even an E4 or a G4 and timbre.


Edit: you guys read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenor for a clearer view of what a tenor does and how it's categorized, at the bottom of the page are listed some pop music tenors

mercury and paul mccartney are listed, so much for the ones who keep saying they are baritones

Last edited by kevinmask : 01-13-2010 at 09:18 PM.
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Old 01-14-2010, 12:14 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinmask
Edit: you guys read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenor for a clearer view of what a tenor does and how it's categorized, at the bottom of the page are listed some pop music tenors

mercury and paul mccartney are listed, so much for the ones who keep saying they are baritones


Do you realize that any of us can go on wikipedia and change the lists for who are baritones and who are tenors?
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Old 01-14-2010, 12:21 AM   #67
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kevinmask is a douche imho
end of topic?

oh you know I <3 you, but if you want to debate someone about this stuff you can't just scream "NOOOOO! =(" every time they disagree with you
open your mind maaaaaan

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Old 01-14-2010, 01:33 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinmask
who told you chad kroeger never sung higher than an A4? in "this is how you remind me" he hits a B4 during the chorus, and in many other songs he does, and he's listed as a low tenor in his book,


Sorry, you may be right. I was just going by memory. I really liked Nickelback up to and including the Silver Side Up album, and not since. (my confession of the day... haha) My memory may be a bit dodgy seeing as I haven't heard that album in about a year.

A low tenor? What the hell is that, anyway? A baritone? *shrug* Baritone describes the range between a bass and a tenor. Bell curves, being what they are, have most of us appearing in the middle. Basic stats. It's like the definition of genius is an IQ of 140 or whatever. Could you be a low genius? No. You can be *almost* a genius, but by definition, you are still not a genius.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinmask
same as kobain,


Going by memory again, but that's just silly. I love his voice. However, he is an awful singer. And as far as range goes, I don't think he has ever croaked out anything higher than a G. If he has, he has only grinded it out on shards of glass, so.... whatever.

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Originally Posted by kevinmask
I don't agree with what you just said that singers tend to give the max, we talked a lot about billie joe amrstrong and he's the proof that a singers who never goes higher than a G4 for years doesn't mean they cant go beyond, now billie sings a lot of G#4 A4


Or his range has expanded because he has become a better singer.....

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Originally Posted by kevinmask
and B4, screaming


At least you qualified/discredited your own statement for me. Hell, I could probably scream or squawk out a B or a C too, but I'm no tenor. Close-ish, but refer to above genius analogy.

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Originally Posted by kevinmask
but he does a good job with those notes just like brian johnson, there's a big industry behind music, and often singers do what they are told to for stylistic purposes, punk rock never really required high notes, so I don't see why a tenor has to be pushed to the limit only because he can,


fair enough

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Originally Posted by kevinmask
joey ramone is an example, he was a tenor but lacked of technique and never went higher than a G4,


So by what mysterious criteria was he declared a tenor, I wonder? I'm even somewhat surprised that he even gets that high. Middle C might be starting to get to the top of his comfortable range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinmask
not all the tenors out there are well trained or naturally gifted, and an untrained tenor remains a "choral tenor"


Maybe, but a choral tenor may also be a highly trained singer who has made the most of his range who just happens to top out around there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinmask
speaking about vocal ranges, so an A4 is often where an untrained tenor tops,


By definition, if they top out there, they are a baritone. (assuming they can sing downwards towards the low G... if they can only sing down to the C and up to the G, they only have an octave and a half range, and therefore are considered to have incomplete ranges.

You are not a tenor until you can sing tenor material. Some people start off thinking they are baritones, but with training, discover they can sing higher, and therefore "discover" that they are tenors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinmask
the high C is not something that comes off the tree, even a tenor has to work hard to obtain the high C, let alone a very good high C, Pavarotti didn't have the High C the day he started to take singing classes, he got a lot of training in order to build it.


Which is *precisely* why only 10% of singers are tenors. Based on the same rationale, and the whole bell curve of standard distribution, it also explains why only 10% of male singers are basses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinmask
Brian May from queen can be a very fast lead guitarist, but never exploited his speed skiils at max cause he kinda ended up plaing pop songs in the latest queen's career where speed is not required, same things for singers, they sing what they have to, and many of them don't exploit their full range for "stylistic requirements" (like billie joe did, but he now showed to be able to sing a B4) ,


true enough, minus the last part.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinmask
plus singing high has nothing to do with skills as we said at the beginning of this thread, in my opinion you can recognize whether someone is a tenor or a baritone by the way they sing even an E4 or a G4 and timbre.


Though there is some truth to that, caution needs to be taken in order to avoid taking too many liberties with this. Let's say I'm putting on a Broadway show or an opera or something, and the part calls for a male lead who is a tenor. The part isn't, as tenor parts go, especially demanding, topping out only at the Bb. Well, you can have the brightest timbre in the world, and all the other indicators that might suggest this is a tenor could be there, but if you top out at the G#, you can't sing the part. Why not? Cause you're not a tenor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinmask
Edit: you guys read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenor for a clearer view of what a tenor does and how it's categorized, at the bottom of the page are listed some pop music tenors

mercury and paul mccartney are listed, so much for the ones who keep saying they are baritones


I studied voice for ten years with a guy who was the youngest tenor ever to join the Metropolitan Opera in New York. I'll base my knowledge on that source before I base it on a wikipedia article.

Besides, that high C is pretty standard when defining the tenor range. You can either do it, or you can at least come very close, or you can't. The gray area isn't near as vast as you seem to want to think it is.

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Old 01-14-2010, 01:58 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheeseman07
I believe Paul McCartney was a tenor, but none of the other beatles were
the guy can go pretty ****ing high, and even though a lot of his top notes are screamed they still have that bright tenor sound to them

after thinking about it, paul might be a tenor. but i really dont think the others were. im watching a video right now showing all their high notes. most of them seem to be A4. paul its a C5 and even some above that but they seem to be pretty shouty.
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Old 01-14-2010, 04:06 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinmask
well guys I give up! I don't see the point why you keep saying those people are actually baritones while they always had a very bright voice and sang very high songs, there's no way a baritone can sing queen's songs or the other band/singers I've mentioned, I really dare you sing those songs if you're baritones, but even if you're tenors you won't be able to sing so high unless you're well trained, if they sing in a tenor range it means they are tenors, freddie mercury can't be a baritone, it's listed as a countertenor anywhere, his bass notes lack of body, while his highs are powerfull and often higher than an A4 and most of his repertoire is very high EVEN FOR WOMEN, so please dont blart out bullshit if you don't know the half of it, cause I'm pretty sure those who say "most rock singers are actually baritones" never even tried to sing one rock song in their life nor taken a single singing class.

well I suggest you guys read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baritone

it's pretty clear about the notes that a baritone can cover and what kind of timbre they have ,so it's a non sense to say singers that have the 90% of their repertoire around the G4 A4 B4 and C5 in full voice are baritones, especially when their voice timbre is very high and girly, baritones have a dark and thick sound, unlike freddie mercury, sting etc.

Beatles are tenors, Paul Mccartney is a very high tenor and sing higher than a G4, the only alleged baritone is ringo star, but I'm not even too sure about that.

Another thing, if a singer never sings the high C doesn't mean he's a baritone, a tenor is not compelled to sing his higher notes just because he's a tenor, some tenors for stylistic purposes don't sing higher than a G4 but that doesn' make him a baritone.

Chad Kroeger and Kurt Kobain are not baritones, don't make them fool you cause they have a raspy voice, their voice are really raspy but bright.

Bono Vox often sings a very good tenor high C (see pride in the name of love,) so why should he be a baritone? a baritone doesn't have the high C, and even tenors very rarely touch that note cause it's the point where well trained tenors top, the others top much earlier, the high C is the highest tenor note, and it's hard even for them, so I don't see why a guy who sings the high C has to be a baritone for you.

I think most of you guys are very confused about voice categories, the best way to understand that is singing, I really doubt you guys can cover the artists I've listed as tenors, cause they are actually even higher than an ordinary tenor, singers like sting, mercury, jackson, bonn scott, stewe wonder are even closer to the Alto voice than the Tenor.


I'm a baritone, and I'm pretty sure I can sing most Queen songs. It is very widely accepted that Freddie was a baritone with regards to his classical register, and especially his speaking voice. This isn't a point of contention. I'm not sure how else to put this.

Bono is a baritone, straight up. He hits a low A on his duet with Sinatra ("Under My Skin.")

Look, I'm not sure why you think people that can make their voices bright are immediately tenors. You are mistaken. I hate to keep using myself as an example, but I'm very much a baritone (my lowest note is the D below the low E string on a guitar, not counting vocal fry) and I don't feel like I have an extraordinary amount of difficulty singing very many songs. Actually, now that you mention Michael Jackson, I've got a half-joking cover of Billie Jean in my profile. It's not my best, but I think it'll convince you that baritones aren't unable to hit convincing tenor notes, especially in the second half.
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Old 01-14-2010, 05:58 AM   #71
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^funny thing about Michael Jackson actually, I don't think he had that high of a voice as far as his "natural" range goes
check out some of his seth riggs training vids on youtube, he goes down to a pretty decent low F and I think seth riggs said he could sing a low E as well, but the low F I've heard is pretty resonant
I think it's more that he hated sounding like an adult, and of course he blended his registers like a champ
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Old 01-14-2010, 08:03 AM   #72
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About Bono.... so he hits a low A, and can sing up and hit a decidedly convincing B just shy of tenor C.

Not really a textbook model of either baritone or tenor, so you could argue either way. His voice is situated in that spot right in the middle. Given the strength of the high B, I would be happy guessing he could get the C as well. Could he hit the low G? I dunno.

He's one of those people who could do both. It's not that unusual for a tenor to top out at a B if it is at least pretty solid and consistent.

I'd have a hard time supporting pigeon-holing him in either one exclusively, but he could most certainly - at least by all appearances - call himself a tenor.

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Old 01-14-2010, 01:56 PM   #73
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im starting to think that these vocal ranges are kinda stupid. i mean, i doubt anyone really falls strictly into one range. overtime with practice and good technique, you can stretch your range. it probably only matters if you are singing something more classically based or in a choral type situation. in popular music though, it doesnt really mean much.
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Old 01-14-2010, 10:37 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Chaingarden
I'm a baritone, and I'm pretty sure I can sing most Queen songs. It is very widely accepted that Freddie was a baritone with regards to his classical register, and especially his speaking voice. This isn't a point of contention. I'm not sure how else to put this.

Bono is a baritone, straight up. He hits a low A on his duet with Sinatra ("Under My Skin.")

Look, I'm not sure why you think people that can make their voices bright are immediately tenors. You are mistaken. I hate to keep using myself as an example, but I'm very much a baritone (my lowest note is the D below the low E string on a guitar, not counting vocal fry) and I don't feel like I have an extraordinary amount of difficulty singing very many songs. Actually, now that you mention Michael Jackson, I've got a half-joking cover of Billie Jean in my profile. It's not my best, but I think it'll convince you that baritones aren't unable to hit convincing tenor notes, especially in the second half.


I'd really like to hear you sing queen's songs, really, do you have any recording? you just said you have the low D! for queen's songs you often require even a high E5, (freddie's chest voice tops at the F#5) so you'd have 3 octaves and a half which is humanly impossible, freddie is one oh the highest voices ever, you just sound stupid when you say he's a baritone, if he's a baritone, I'm a counterbass, so would be most of the rest of the singers, and tenors wouldn't exist, funny that you think jackson is a baritone too, another one of the highest voices ever, I guess mariah carey is a baritone too from your point of view, at this point either you're jocking or again you're extremely confused about vocal registers and high notes.

I'm a real baritone, gone through a good ten years of experience, I can sing anything within the low E2 and the high G4 (point where the canonic baritone tops), 2 octaves and one tone, which is the average, only very gifted humans can have more than this, whatever is higher than the G4 is impossible for me, and have to transpose, I think you read the wikipedia article, the baritone goes from G2 to G4, there might be an error gap of one tone or one and a half at either top end but not of a whole octave, the high C5 is where a good trained tenor tops (not all the pop tenors have it), from D5 on is Alto range, a baritone can sing in the alto range in falsetto (see ian gillan), but this is not the case of mercury, jackson and the others mentioned in my list, as for the low A2 that's a note that tenors do have, not very thick and sustainy like baritones' but they have it, especially if they are dramatic tenors, a baritone goes much lower than that.
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Old 01-14-2010, 10:50 PM   #75
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here is the difference on how a baritone sounds like compared to tenors:

baritones examples,

hear how deep their voices are

axl rose
eddie vedder http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2QEqQoygws&translated=1
david coverdale

now let's hear some well known tenors

robert plant http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgCy...from=PL&index=7
michael jackson (countertenor)
paul mccartney http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aqGtxoXPLE&feature=fvw
freddie mercury http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4Xg...feature=related
sting

pretty big difference huh?

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Old 01-14-2010, 11:13 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by kevinmask
if he's a baritone, I'm a counterbass, so would be most of the rest of the singers, and tenors wouldn't exist


A counterbass would be a pointless vocal category equivalent to a tenor or baritone....
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Old 01-15-2010, 12:02 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by isaac_bandits
A counterbass would be a pointless vocal category equivalent to a tenor or baritone....

counterbass is just a stupid thing that I've said as a response to what cheeseman said about mercury, c'mon isaac wake up!!!!
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Old 01-15-2010, 12:25 AM   #78
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I just realized an answer to the original question:

For some reason high notes impress people. I don't get it myself, but it's true. Say you're playing in the lower two octaves on guitar, maybe doing something technically impressive, or maybe not. You whip out a quick scale run or arpeggio and eventually land on a D6, bending it up to an E6. People will clap,as long as you sustain the note instead of deadening it.

I realize that was irrelevant to the conversation, but I felt like I'd share my two cents.
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Old 01-15-2010, 12:33 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinmask
counterbass is just a stupid thing that I've said as a response to what cheeseman said about mercury, c'mon isaac wake up!!!!


Wake up? Seems like someone just is frustrated when people point out that he doesn't really know what he's talking about. If you wanted a stupid term for a really low singer (which is what context said you wanted), you would have sound contrabass, since that's the range below bass, although its only used to describe instruments, as people can't sing that low.
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Old 01-15-2010, 06:47 AM   #80
Cheeseman07
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Join Date: Apr 2009
lol kevin I've never seen anyone get so pissed off over voice types
though if Michael Jackson really is a natural counter-tenor, would he be able to hit the same low notes as you without using vocal fry?

ps stop with the stubbornness, when everyone's disagreeing with you and you're using wikipedia as a reference that should maybe tell you something sugarcakes
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