Go Back   UG Community @ Ultimate-Guitar.Com > Music > Musician Talk > Singing & Vocals
User Name  
Password
Search:

Reply
Old 01-15-2010, 08:36 AM   #81
axemanchris
Awwww.... NOW what?!
 
axemanchris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Quote:
Originally Posted by isaac_bandits
A counterbass would be a pointless vocal category equivalent to a tenor or baritone....


I think he meant basso profundo. That is a bass with an especially strong bottom end (haha.... that sounded funny....) and often even extended lower range.

A lyric baritone is one who sings up to the A or Bb, but still not strong enough on the high end to be considered a tenor.

IIRC, a spinto tenor is one with an especially high and bright voice throughout the tenor range.

But yeah.... they're labels that attempt to describe voices and vocal ranges. There are more voices and ranges than there are names, so there is *some* room for dispute. However, not *that* much. In the end, though, they are just labels.

Essentially we're arguing about semantics. Meh.... If it sounds good, it is good.

A lot of the hair metal singers - and chaingarden can do this as well - have developed their falsetto such that their transition between their full voice and their falsetto is nearly seamless. Sure, maybe you can't quite tell that the A above middle C is falsetto or not, because it is blended well, but once you get up to the tenor C and beyond, it becomes pretty obvious. Tenors who can do this can often get upwards to that E5 and beyond. (like my example of the last note of Run to the Hills, which is the G at the high end of a mezzo-soprano range.)

I've really not studied either of them, but maybe that's what MJ and FM are doing too. I'm sure that is what was meant above by a "baritone singing in the tenor range."

CT
__________________
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by firehawk
Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
axemanchris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2010, 08:38 AM   #82
axemanchris
Awwww.... NOW what?!
 
axemanchris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Quote:
Originally Posted by food1010
I just realized an answer to the original question:

For some reason high notes impress people. I don't get it myself, but it's true. Say you're playing in the lower two octaves on guitar, maybe doing something technically impressive, or maybe not. You whip out a quick scale run or arpeggio and eventually land on a D6, bending it up to an E6. People will clap,as long as you sustain the note instead of deadening it.

I realize that was irrelevant to the conversation, but I felt like I'd share my two cents.


No, not irrelevant.... from page 1:

Quote:
Originally Posted by axemanchris
1. Regardless of instrument, people tend to associate high notes with skill. High notes on trumpets will get the applause. People love to see people doing guitar solos up the neck and squealing out those high notes. And people love to hear a singer crank it up and wail out an impressive high note. Why? I dunno, but my point is that it isn't just singers.


Has this discussion come full-circle yet?



CT
__________________
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by firehawk
Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
axemanchris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2010, 08:44 AM   #83
axemanchris
Awwww.... NOW what?!
 
axemanchris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinmask
here is the difference on how a baritone sounds like compared to tenors:

baritones examples,

hear how deep their voices are

axl rose
eddie vedder http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2QEqQoygws&translated=1
david coverdale

now let's hear some well known tenors

robert plant http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgCy...from=PL&index=7
michael jackson (countertenor)
paul mccartney http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aqGtxoXPLE&feature=fvw
freddie mercury http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4Xg...feature=related
sting

pretty big difference huh?


There IS some truth that your speaking voice and your singing voice are often indicative of each other.

However, hearing a bunch of their speaking voices doesn't prove anything about their singing ranges.

CT
__________________
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by firehawk
Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
axemanchris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2010, 11:28 AM   #84
kevinmask
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by axemanchris
There IS some truth that your speaking voice and your singing voice are often indicative of each other.

However, hearing a bunch of their speaking voices doesn't prove anything about their singing ranges.

CT

but in this case we also have proof about their singing, unles you never heard them
kevinmask is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2010, 11:47 AM   #85
kevinmask
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by isaac_bandits
Wake up? Seems like someone just is frustrated when people point out that he doesn't really know what he's talking about. If you wanted a stupid term for a really low singer (which is what context said you wanted), you would have sound contrabass, since that's the range below bass, although its only used to describe instruments, as people can't sing that low.


contrabass doesn't exist either speaking about vocal Mr smarty pants, it's just as stupid as counterbass, counterbass logically would make more sense due to the countertenor opposite part.

counter/contra has exactly the same meaning, comes from latin and means "against"
counter is english, contra is latin, you wanna be smarter than me but it seems like you lack of semantic and linguistic notions as well.

Quote:
stop with the stubbornness, when everyone's disagreeing with you and you're using wikipedia as a reference that should maybe tell you something sugarcakes


if people disagree with me doesn't mean you're right, the stubborn here is you, have you ever read a music book? I studied plenty, even a middle school music book categorizes voices the same way as wikipedia does, I posted you a wikipedia page cause it's the fastest way to show something in a forum, but you're free to check vocal types and ranges info anywhere else on the web and see that I'm right, anyway that page is written by an expert and it's checked daily in case someone modifies something with bullshits, but I know I'm wasting my time with you, cause you're just too proud of yourself and you won't change your mind, I posted written notes and audio proofs, but you just keep ignoring them and grasping at straws, so I told you enough times you're wrong about those singers, and I won't tell you again, remain in your ignorance and stubbornness if that makes you happy, adios.
kevinmask is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2010, 05:35 PM   #86
Chaingarden
RE: Su...de "Ret-Siger!"
 
Chaingarden's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinmask
I'd really like to hear you sing queen's songs, really, do you have any recording? you just said you have the low D! for queen's songs you often require even a high E5, (freddie's chest voice tops at the F#5) so you'd have 3 octaves and a half which is humanly impossible, freddie is one oh the highest voices ever, you just sound stupid when you say he's a baritone, if he's a baritone, I'm a counterbass, so would be most of the rest of the singers, and tenors wouldn't exist, funny that you think jackson is a baritone too, another one of the highest voices ever, I guess mariah carey is a baritone too from your point of view, at this point either you're jocking or again you're extremely confused about vocal registers and high notes.

I'm a real baritone, gone through a good ten years of experience, I can sing anything within the low E2 and the high G4 (point where the canonic baritone tops), 2 octaves and one tone, which is the average, only very gifted humans can have more than this, whatever is higher than the G4 is impossible for me, and have to transpose, I think you read the wikipedia article, the baritone goes from G2 to G4, there might be an error gap of one tone or one and a half at either top end but not of a whole octave, the high C5 is where a good trained tenor tops (not all the pop tenors have it), from D5 on is Alto range, a baritone can sing in the alto range in falsetto (see ian gillan), but this is not the case of mercury, jackson and the others mentioned in my list, as for the low A2 that's a note that tenors do have, not very thick and sustainy like baritones' but they have it, especially if they are dramatic tenors, a baritone goes much lower than that.


I literally just provided a recording for you that spans a wider range than you suggested.

You have to approach rock differently in this sense. Purity and consistency of tone isn't as stressed as it is in classical music, not to mention unamplified projection. These baritones could not reach these notes with classical standards imposed, I'll give you that much. Music books in school don't cover popular or rock music, and how the voice works in that context.

Freddie Mercury pushed a lot to reach his high notes. You can hear it more in live footage than on recordings. I don't know what to tell you about that. It's well documented that Freddie Mercury was considered a baritone by classical standards, and by other professional classical singers that were his contemporaries and peers. He had a wide range for a baritone, and he pushed his full voice really far, but he was a baritone.

Do not patronize me. You have, in almost every occasion that you've posted in this thread, proven yourself ignorant at best. It's one thing to purport falsehoods. It's entirely another to be antagonistic towards others, while holding false and improperly educated beliefs. If you're going to insist things that are not true, or not well researched, while being defensive and toxic, kindly shut your mouth or leave. You might be able to get away with people only thinking you're uneducated about the subject, rather than an acerbic moron.
Chaingarden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2010, 05:48 PM   #87
food1010
Bassist
 
food1010's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by axemanchris
No, not irrelevant.... from page 1:



Has this discussion come full-circle yet?



CT
Oh, haha, sorry for repeating what's already been said.

Edit: I even posted like two posts later

I actually quoted something from that exact post.
__________________
Only play what you hear. If you donít hear anything, donít play anything.
-Chick Corea

Last edited by food1010 : 01-15-2010 at 05:51 PM.
food1010 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2010, 07:47 PM   #88
axemanchris
Awwww.... NOW what?!
 
axemanchris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinmask
but in this case we also have proof about their singing, unles you never heard them

axl rose...eddie vedder.... david coverdale

now let's hear some well known tenors

robert plant ... michael jackson..... paul mccartney.....freddie mercury.... sting


Disclaimer - I'm going totally by memory here, so forgive me if I'm talking out of my hat, but here are my impressions:

David Coverdale you listed as a baritone, and Robert Plant you listed as tenor. And yet they sound very much the same in a lot of ways, including their ranges. In fact, IIRC, Jimmy Page has called David Coverdale a Robert Plant wannabe. They both use their falsetto a lot to achieve those high ranges. Come to think of it, so do Jackson.

Speaking of falsetto.... Axl Rose uses his a lot too. It's hard to gage Rose and Coverdale (from memory) because all of their really high notes are falsetto. I really can't place them singing high notes in full voice. Maybe this is the basis on which they are listed as baritones? And yet Plant is a tenor.... interesting.

Vedder = baritone = very good example.

I'd have to go back and give a good listen to Sting to say whether I agree or not. Maybe.

McCartney and Mercury.... from memory I would agree, in the absence of better evidence to the contrary.

I think if you want to pick good examples, they should be ones who, when they demonstrate their ranges, do so in full voice.

Bono from U2 going up to the B in Pride... that was a good example. The guy from Trooper ("Raise a Little Hell", "Boys in the Bright White Sports Car") is a good example. Bruce Dickenson. There are a bunch, but you really have to start thinking.

Dexter Holland from Offspring would be, I think, though it can be a little hard to tell where his falsetto kicks in. That other list that mentioned Johnny Rotten as a tenor.... LOL.

CT
__________________
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by firehawk
Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
axemanchris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2010, 07:55 PM   #89
axemanchris
Awwww.... NOW what?!
 
axemanchris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaingarden
I literally just provided a recording for you that spans a wider range than you suggested.


I can't find it. Maybe it's Friday afternoon blindness. I was genuinely interested in hearing it as an information piece, not to discredit you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaingarden
You have to approach rock differently in this sense. Purity and consistency of tone isn't as stressed as it is in classical music, not to mention unamplified projection. These baritones could not reach these notes with classical standards imposed, I'll give you that much. Music books in school don't cover popular or rock music, and how the voice works in that context.


I agree, basically. And to take that one step further, in rock music, nobody really *cares* whether you're a baritone or a tenor or an inverted stupified catatonic widget. Those classifications are good descriptors for voice types, which is HUGELY important when casting an opera or a musical, but are essentially unnecessary unless you have a real burning desire to categorize things for the sake of doing so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaingarden
Freddie Mercury pushed a lot to reach his high notes. You can hear it more in live footage than on recordings. I don't know what to tell you about that. It's well documented that Freddie Mercury was considered a baritone by classical standards, and by other professional classical singers that were his contemporaries and peers. He had a wide range for a baritone, and he pushed his full voice really far, but he was a baritone.


You make an interesting - and important - qualifier. I don't know if I've ever heard any live Queen. I'm really not a fan, though I can appreciate them for what they are. My 'tenor' assessment is based on how he sounds in the studio. Maybe on a good day, doing a take here and there, each line in isolation, he can hit those tenor notes in full voice... assisted a bit by some judicious reverb and such. If he can't do them live, then.... he can't *really* do them consistently enough to have them be part of his range. I have some YouTubing to do.

CT
__________________
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by firehawk
Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
axemanchris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2010, 07:57 PM   #90
axemanchris
Awwww.... NOW what?!
 
axemanchris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Open 'unofficial' warning - there are a few words/phrases in these last couple pages that I think are really crossing the line into flaming territory.

CT
__________________
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by firehawk
Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
axemanchris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2010, 11:51 PM   #91
Chaingarden
RE: Su...de "Ret-Siger!"
 
Chaingarden's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
@chris

I didn't actually provide a link, I just mentioned that there's an example in my profile. It's on my Soundclick page; it's "Billie Jean."
Chaingarden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2010, 01:31 AM   #92
Blind In 1 Ear
Git-Man
 
Blind In 1 Ear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
i said before that i thought mark farner was a baritone because of how low he talks. but then i listened to him talk back in the day and im not so sure. then i listened to the song i want freedom and his range, and the power behind it makes me think he probably is a tenor. either way, hes one of my singing heros and ill keep trying to sing his songs.

second opinion? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhZ3...from=PL&index=6

is he belting his falsetto or is this full voice? the other thing i notice is its pretty clean singing, not like axl or robert plant even.
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/timmy47?feature=mhee

check out my youtube page for some songs.
Blind In 1 Ear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2010, 02:16 PM   #93
michaelwalsh123
Enjoys sandwiches
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Ireland
Pffft... Tenors... Baritones... who needs em??
Basses are where it's at.... :P
michaelwalsh123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2010, 06:18 PM   #94
Chaingarden
RE: Su...de "Ret-Siger!"
 
Chaingarden's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
@chris (again)

Bah, in signature, not profile. I can't brain, I have the dumb.
Chaingarden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2010, 01:05 PM   #95
ehlert99
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
myles kennedy has insane range being a tenor.. and he doesnt sound girly at all.. and its amazing when backed behind marks hard hitting riffs
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by extrememetal94
I really hope I have a small penis.
ehlert99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2010, 02:52 PM   #96
axemanchris
Awwww.... NOW what?!
 
axemanchris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
In that Billie Jean cover, on a quick listen, I heard notes going up to at least the B. That's beyond baritone range. MJ hits them quite cleanly, though I don't recall if he uses falsetto there or not.

CT
__________________
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by firehawk
Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
axemanchris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2010, 11:18 AM   #97
Simptom
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
I came across this thread searching for academia's opinion on what Kurt Cobain's actual register was because I feel mine is pretty similar. I couldn't resist putting in my two cents into the matter.

Now why people want to be tenors, truth is; it just sounds better. A true tenor voice is really the most versatile vocal fach, especially one (male) that lands almost dead center amongst all the possible fachs such as Jeff Buckely. Jeff Buckley was a Tenor II which is pretty much broaching the female alto range, which he could sing effortlessly by the way. I think the rationale behind why an individual is so prized for possessing this type of voice probably has a lot to do with it being so balanced between the sexes really; high enough to be beautiful, but still maintains a twinge of masculinity in it. Paul McCartney, same deal; naturally very high voice. You can see him in an interview on youtube mimicking Michael Jackson's voice to a tee.

As far as possibly ranges, anything over 3 octaves, without falsetto, is pretty impressive. It is possible mind you, but only with intense training. A baritone's high C will have a slightly darker timbre to it than a natural tenor's high C, even with this training, though to most the two notes can sound very similar in quality.

It is accepted that certain cultures have different tones at which they speak. Look at the Japanese, it seems many of them in television either lower their voices when they're men to sound more masculine or higher them (and this is proven, look it up) if they are women to sound more effeminate. The issue with this is that most older Japanese men are not very tall and couldn't possibly have developed enough tissue on their vocal cords to make their voices sound so deep. They talk downward! I'm just illustrating here that speaking voice is not indicative of a certain vocal classification because it is very easy to manipulate one's voice to sound higher or lower; it's how voice actors an impressionists work.

It is generally accepted that most baritones can sing at least somewhat into tenor range as that voice type can go slightly upward or downward into whichever corresponding classification. Thing is though, when you get to the nitty gritty, there are a whole host of even subclassifications within each voice type.

For instance, Freddie Mercury was a natural baritone, but he was one of few people to possess an almost 4 octave range (something like over 5 with falsetto) which is astounding really. Speaking voices are not indicative of some one's singing range all the time. I share a lot in common with Freddie Mercury. I love tenors, really do, been training for almost ten years trying to expand my range, but I am a natural baritone, however, much like Freddie Mercury and Kurt Cobain I'm one of those inbetweeners. Which is frustrating really because not many known singers possess or have possessed that voice type. By the way, many people think I'm gay because my voice is so light and because it doesn't match with my height, that's how light I sound (almost like Jeff Buckley's speaking voice I've been told).

My own speaking voice is very high for my height (nearly 6'2"), and I've attained a 3.5 octave range, literally 4.5 with falsetto, and I can tell you that even my voice isn't at all as light as Jeff Buckley's or Thom Yorke's. However, I can say, that my voice is much, much lighter than Eddie Veddars or many of the other baritones you guys listed. I can sing bass through Tenor I; it's the mid to upper reaches of Tenor II in full voice where my voice conks out on me. I've even been singing some Queen lately to learn that style and yes, I seem to be able to match everything and seem to be just short of some of the very high stuff Freddie can sing (Seaside Rendesvouz is proving to not be that difficult range wise).

You all have to realize something though, people, baritones like Freddie really pushed their voices. It is known Freddie had really bad vocal cord nodules to the point they would periodically burst and he'd cough up blood. There was one point in his life where he didn't speak aside from necessary things at all for months at a time so he could preserve his voice for singing. I myself, from trying to sing like Jeremy Enigk, blew out my voice once and developed vocal cord nodules at one point. This was not fun. And as far as singing at a young age, yes, it does play a crucial role in maintaining a lighter voice and expanding one's range. I have anecdotal evidence I'd like to share.

I'm now 25 and I started singing when I was 15. I was always trying to expand my range because of the singers I loved like Jeff Buckley, Jeremy Enigk, and Thom Yorke. In the end, as I said, I developed a 4.5 octave range (about 1 to 1.25 of that falsetto), I just tested this a few weeks ago. I can sing from a higher bass to a tenor I and even some tenor II with no problem. I can sing soprano (not just alto!) in my falsetto (working on Dido's lament, yeah, really). I am positive because of my height I would have ended up with a much lower voice as my family where the men on my dad's side are all no taller than 5'9" (my father) are all baritones, and deep ones at that. Also I am pretty thin, I'm about 170 lbs. at nearly 6'2" (I have a lot of lean muscle), but I feel being thin also makes your voice much lighter, think about it for a second, less skin and other cells to block the flow of air through your vocal cords and larynx. I think this also plays into my voice being lighter, but I digress.

Training at a young age to retain certain vocal qualities has even been studied over hundreds of years and has been proven by more scientific methods in the past century. Singing at an early age will enable you to retain a higher voice or at least a larger range (with training) unless hormones really do you in. It's just like gymnastics, gymnasts are nearly flexible for life because most start at a very young age.

Now one of my best friends (same age pretty much) is a musician too and he just started singing maybe 3 or 4 years ago. He's more or a less a real tenor. A deep one, but a real tenor nonetheless. He probably only at most has a range of one and a half to two octaves and his falsetto is not really developed at all. He's good mind you because the type of music he plays doesn't necessitate vocal acrobatics. Nevertheless, there is a good case to be made; I am of the strong opinion that had he started singing before puberty was over for him that his voice would be lighter and he would have more range. Yes, genetics do influence to a degree what your range will be, but I am a firm believer in that proper training or practice is the only way to fully utilize it.
Simptom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2010, 02:07 PM   #98
Blind In 1 Ear
Git-Man
 
Blind In 1 Ear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
your size doesnt really have anything to do with your voice. ive seen tall/big peope with high voices and small/short people with deep voices. unless you have some sort of data on this, i think its BS.

anyways, i think the only reason why people like tenors is that most people arent one. its different from the norm. they can go higer than most people so it seems impressive. lots of people like baritones as well though. i like baritone singers because their voice usually sounds darker and fuller. but one of my favorite singers is a tenor, stevie wonder.
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/timmy47?feature=mhee

check out my youtube page for some songs.
Blind In 1 Ear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2010, 06:04 PM   #99
axemanchris
Awwww.... NOW what?!
 
axemanchris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simptom
Now why people want to be tenors, truth is; it just sounds better.


So, by way of an almost exactly parallel comparison, you would also agree that a violin sounds better than a viola? That a trumpet sounds better than an trombone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simptom
As far as possibly ranges, anything over 3 octaves, without falsetto, is pretty impressive.


That's like saying that a person who wins an Olympic medal, or the person who graduates from university with a 99% average is pretty impressive. Sure, possible, but only for those very rare super humans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simptom
It is possible mind you, but only with intense training. A baritone's high C


If a baritone could hit a high C, he wouldn't be a baritone... Unless of course his strength was in the lower part of his range and his high C was barely usable, in which case, can he *really* sing the high C?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simptom
It is generally accepted that most baritones can sing at least somewhat into tenor range as that voice type can go slightly upward or downward into whichever corresponding classification. Thing is though, when you get to the nitty gritty, there are a whole host of even subclassifications within each voice type.


Yes, this is all true. However, within the two octaves of any two adjacent major classification groups (say, between baritone and tenor), there will be a full octave of overlap. Whereas the baritone will be able to sing below the C below middle C and down to a G, the tenor will be able to sing from the G above middle C up to the C.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simptom
For instance, Freddie Mercury was a natural baritone, but he was one of few people to possess an almost 4 octave range (something like over 5 with falsetto) which is astounding really.


Yeah, I'll say, seeing as my 24-fret guitar only has four octaves, and my full-sized piano only has seven.

Do you seriously believe that *anyone* has that kind of range? Come on. Man, I hate it when people inflate people's ranges with unsubstantiated hyperbole rather than being realistic about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simptom
much like Freddie Mercury and Kurt Cobain I'm one of those inbetweeners.


Cobain was an in-betweener? Sorry, I'm going entirely on memory here, but my recollection of his singing is such that he squawks out anything higher than an F# just below the top of the upper baritone range. (F# above middle C). He's *miles* from being an in-between, unless of course, my memory has a huge hole in it. It has happened before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simptom
baritones like Freddie really pushed their voices. It is known Freddie had really bad vocal cord nodules to the point they would periodically burst and he'd cough up blood. There was one point in his life where he didn't speak aside from necessary things at all for months at a time so he could preserve his voice for singing.


Yes, I have heard this too. Unfortunately, this provides evidence that people who are baritones should probably not try to be tenors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simptom
I myself, from trying to sing like Jeremy Enigk, blew out my voice once and developed vocal cord nodules at one point. This was not fun.


Above advice further supported. Have you learned from your mistakes? Are you doing anything differently so this doesn't happen again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simptom
I developed a 4.5 octave range (about 1 to 1.25 of that falsetto), I just tested this a few weeks ago.


I'd like to hear that. See above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simptom
I am positive because of my height I would have ended up with a much lower voice as my family where the men on my dad's side are all no taller than 5'9" (my father) are all baritones, and deep ones at that. Also I am pretty thin, I'm about 170 lbs. at nearly 6'2" (I have a lot of lean muscle), but I feel being thin also makes your voice much lighter, think about it for a second, less skin and other cells to block the flow of air through your vocal cords and larynx.


And then look at Pavarotti.... one of the very few modern tenors who can NAIL that tenor high C.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simptom
Now one of my best friends (same age pretty much) is a musician too and he just started singing maybe 3 or 4 years ago. He's more or a less a real tenor. A deep one, but a real tenor nonetheless. He probably only at most has a range of one and a half to two octaves


Now, I didn't start singing until I was almost 30, (hardly having sung a note for about 18 years prior to that), and I can get a little better than two octaves in full voice with enough power to fill a small theater without a mic.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Simptom
Yes, genetics do influence to a degree what your range will be, but I am a firm believer in that proper training or practice is the only way to fully utilize it.


Now THIS I entirely agree with. Your range is defined by two things:

1. The length and thickness of your vocal cords.
2. The training required to ensure that you are not limiting your potential unnecessarily.

Genetics defines the first of those, and training addresses the second.

CT
__________________
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by firehawk
Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
axemanchris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2010, 08:02 AM   #100
Simptom
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Several things I'd like to address Axemanchris:

As far as stringed instruments go... Think to yourself why violin takes precedence over things like cello and bass when it comes to orchestral leads or solos. The human brain is programmed to find certain sounds more pleasing than others. There is scientific evidence out there that supports this with studies done on "the most pleasing sounds" to human beings' ears. I strongly believe that the tenor voice or any "preferred" voice type for that matter certainly play into this. If I'm wrong, then why is the proportion to tenors and baritones so skewed when it comes to popular music?

Possessing a range of over three octaves isn't quite entirely all that rare. Most classical and professional singers (not "vocalists" in bands mind you) seem to have a range at least close to three octaves. Many critics will agree that to be a professional singer a minimum range of about 3 octaves is necessary to separate oneself from the rest of the herd. However, there are many exceptions to this rule!

A baritone hitting a high C is still a baritone. A baritone that can do this would only be adjusting accordingly to the vocal fach of a tenor. See heldontenors or dramatic tenors for this. Many baritones are able to push their voices upwards in order to achieve this. You play guitar right Axeman? So you're telling me that the A fretted on the low E string of the guitar has the same EXACT tonal quality as the open A on the next string down? I don't know about you, but my ears certainly detect that the fretted A does not quite ring out the same as that open A because of the difference in string tension. It is just slightly, slightly short of being as bright as that open A. I myself when learning from ear on guitar seem to instinctively make this distinction when I do learn by ear. When I check a tab or sheet music to check my progress, I am usually on the mark with exactly what note on what fret I should be playing. Similarly, there's such a thing as vocal tension too you know and this plays into the flexibility and thickness of vocal cords and voice classification. I can certainly tell the difference, but maybe it's just me.

Freddie did have a 5 octave range, and so did Tim Buckley, both of which, as in describing my 4+ octave range, get sketchy for me when they approach their highest octave. They seem to have been able to hit all the same low notes as I can too. Because of this, knowing my own range, I am convinced that they had nearly 5+ few note octave ranges including falsetto. Tim Buckley was certainly a tenor though, but his voice darkened considerably when he got older. Even though he was intentionally singing low from Greetings From L.A. onward, one can tell that his voice still darkened as he got older. This is what I can match best from him and hit nearly everything he could at this point; again, nearly.

As far as height; it's usually implied with that the larger the human being is the larger his vocal folds would possibly be as he is just, well, large. Hence the misbelief that this is true for all tall people. I think there is a breaking point for height where a lighter voice would be more prevalent though and that weight will play a larger role the taller you are. Pavarotti was only about 5'9" to, at the very most, and this is being generous, 5'10" or 5'11" which is doubtful. 5'10" seems to be the point at which height begins to play a role. Honestly, how many 6'2" dudes have you met in your life who had a light voice? I can only think of only one other than myself that I've met in my adult life... Vocal cord thickness by extension of height plays more of a role past a breaking point. Though I agree that this isn't always the case.

I wish I had some digital recording gear because I'd love to demo my range for you Axe. I have about an octave to an octave and half off the low E string on the guitar downwards and can sing up to falsetto on about the 16th to 18th fret (remember, about an octave of that is falsetto) on the high E string. I do vocal exercises with my guitar often enough. Believe me, it is obtainable. You have only been singing since you were 30. I started during puberty. I began singing early enough to achieve this. To say that singing at an early age doesn't affect one's voice is bollocks. I am a firm believer that had Michael Jackson not sung as early as he did his voice would be nowhere nearly as bright as it was.

A recent example of the range I do possess occurred recently. I was visiting my parents at their home and watching television with my step mother. I was watching a clip of Show Boat and jokingly sang a deep bass mimicking the singer of the song "Old Man River" much to her laughter. Then, we listened to Ella Fitzgerald's "Summer Time" and I was able to sing her parts in a mixed and falsetto voice, MATCHING all the notes both singers had sung. Needless to say she was thoroughly impressed. Call me a light baritone/countertenor if you will, doesn't matter to me. This is possible!

I have nothing to prove and no reason to lie on a fricking internet forum just to feel special. I can understand the skepticism, but this is not the case for me. I remember my first formal vocal lesson so vividly. I had slightly over a three octave range, without falsetto, walking into the door to my first lesson at age 18 having sung for about 3 years on my own and my vocal instructor was quite impressed with my range on that first lesson. This correlates to the time I just discovered Jeff Buckley and about a year or two after discovering Jeremy Enigk which changed my whole view on the voice as an instrument. From that point on I really began pushing my voice. I am a natural light baritone as I said and my comfortable range is almost exactly like Kurt Cobain's softer/higher side to give you an idea. And yes, he had to have been in between voice types as his voice was way too light compared to your classic baritone like Eddie Veddar or Chris Cornell.

As far as the vocal damage, yes, I have identified the problem and hopefully fixed it. I was singing for way too long at nearly 6 hours a day in way too high a register singing at nearly a very very light tenor register. I developed vocal cord nodules and couldn't sing for 9 months. It was hell. But I really only ran into problems originally when I was recording a few years back and was having a rough time with my band mate. I was trying to prove to him I wanted to play with him (he thought at the time my temperamental voice was an excuse to hold us both back musically) by singing through the worst bout of laryngitis I've ever had in my life. Not to mention I had severe tonsillitis during this time and had to get a tonsillectomy that summer and that I was just diagnosed with GERD! Fun right? I even had to go through extreme dietary changes for singing, but it's worth it.

Either way, I sing in a warmer tone now and have learned to mix up my voice since (been singing kind of like a mix between Tim Buckley, bit of Jeff Buckley, Morrissey, Rufus Wainwright, and Ryan Adams anymore). Furthermore, it sucks, but this just solidifies my belief that baritones have to work harder to achieve a more pleasant singing voice. I am really envious of natural tenors because their voices oftentimes sound so naturally pleasant without as much training as I've had to go through, like my roommate and former band mate, confound him!

I want to add Axeman, no hard feelings here. I'm really enjoying this debate with you and I think you pose some very good points. I'm only speaking from my own personal experiences and from all the information I've learned about the voice from over the years. I've had some formal training and have done a lot of research on the topic of vocal health and training. This is where I'm coming from.

With that said, fire away!

P.S. There's one last thing I'd like to add. For those of you who think that falsetto is not a true representation of range and that when people include this they are padding their own purported range I say to you, you are wrong! It's called mixed head voice baby! Many people out there are able to meld the top end of their register with falsetto. This takes training to learn, but it is possible. I personally do not agree with anyone saying some one singing in mixed head voice is singing in falsetto. There is an obvious purity and tonal quality difference in these registers. Jeff Buckley did this a ton, but he reserved his true falsetto for things like Corpus Christi Carol and Dido's Lament.

It's for this reason that instead of saying I possess a 3.5 octave range that I possess a 4.5 octave range. A good singer can ride the line between head voice and falsetto and by extension, expand upon his head register. It's for this very reason that I get somewhat pissy when people say that falsetto is not a true representation of range. So then, since Klaus Nomi sang well over 3 octaves, close to 4, in falsetto, plus had his baritone of at most two, which is about as far as he went with his baritone register, you're telling me that he only had a 2 octave voice? Get real!

It's funny how people seem to make exceptions and accept that falsetto is a real part of one person's range and others not. Fans of Mariah Carey love to say she has a 5 octave voice. Well, I know for a fact women do possess a falsetto and that those notes she hits in whistle register are falsetto, not her chest or head register or is the result of at least a very well blended head voice. So I think it should be accepted that falsetto is a natural extension of a person's accepted range.

Last edited by Simptom : 02-08-2010 at 09:00 AM.
Simptom is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:04 PM.

Forum Archives / About / Terms of Use / Advertise / Contact / Ultimate-Guitar.Com © 2014
Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.