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View Poll Results: In or out of the EU
In 171 58.97%
Out 68 23.45%
Non-UK 51 17.59%
Voters: 290. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-07-2009, 07:33 PM   #61
Stormx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bestykid
1) Although I'd prefer if we were secular, the state religion is Christianity.


The state religion is NOT christianity. Indeed, the only non-secular part is to do with the opening of parliament, and that is PURELY traditional.

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Originally Posted by Bestykid
Anyway why are people claiming not holding influence over the world is a bad thing?


Because if we hold influence then we get better deals. Duh.

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Originally Posted by Bestykid
Norway, outside of the EU, has one of the best standards of living in the world and it is outside the EU, and holds tiny power in the world.


Norway holds power because they found oil reserves in the 50s. The state poured the money into socialism and now the standard of living is relatively good. Norway holds relatively little power because the politicians are clean, and the whole system treats personal freedom above corporate interest. They're not power hungry, they're just sensible

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Originally Posted by Bestykid
What is actully wrong with states which have isolationist foreign policies?


They suffer in the long run because they don't invest in trade.
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Old 11-07-2009, 07:39 PM   #62
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Few points:

1) We're a secularist country.
2) Paragraphs are your friend.
3) 'Shariah' not 'shia' and what the BNP wants to lead us into is just as bad as shariah law. Why aren't you annoyed with them?
4) Since when was it ok to use voilence on crowds spreading opinions?

Actually maybe '2' was unneccessary. It looked a lot longer when I first looked at it.

Ok, in response to your points (this being a forum, not arguing or flaming or whatever, simply expressing my opinion (I'll move onto this point in a second))
1). Considering that the head of our state is a Christian, personally, i believe that it stands to reason that our country as a whole is based upon christian beliefs. As 'proof' if you will, just watching the remembrance service tonight, and the service was taken by members of the christian faith, and all prayers, hymns and so on and so forth were taken with regards to christianity.

2). I see your point, i was just getting my point across as quickly as possible. Normally i'm a right grammar Nazi...

3). I couldn't remember quite exactly how it was spelled or pronounced, and i meant no disrespect to anybody about it, but I'd like to make it perfectly clear that i only believe in 1 or 2 of the policies put forward by the BNP, namely the removal of scroungers and so on. If people are working or actively looking for work and really want to stay here and help the economy or any other part of what i perceive to be the british society, then they are welcome and i would not want them to leave under any circumstances. I am most certainly NOT in support of the majority of BNP policies, and therefore, do not support the BNP. (from your post, it seemed to me as though you believed i support them)

4). I'm not saying its OK to use violence on people expressing their opinions, that would in essence boil down to facism and nazism, which i am politically against having studied the topic for 4 years at minimum. I'm saying that while we have servicemen getting killed or injured in the middle east, and yet we have people preaching what our servicemen are fighting as a basis of the mandate (or whatever you call it) of the taliban, it just feels incredibly disrespectful to me, our servicemen and the families of those who have been either killed or injured in conflict with the taliban or other militant groups.

Quote:
66% of british people have no particular affiliation with any church or organised religion. We are a firmly secular country. You're right that the people promoting Sharia law are abhorrent but you have to understand that they're in a minority and aren't really any better than christians who base their politics off of their religous beliefs. Also a lot of groups like to overstate the threat to further some kind of broadly anti-muslim agenda as well (Like the BNP).

And people being allowed to not have the crap beaten out of them for their beliefs is called freedom of speech. You probably wouldn't like to have someone kick the crap out of you in a middle eastern country because you supported the Iraq and Afghanistan wars (Assuming you do, if not just substitute something similar) would you?

As i mentioned before, i'm not a religious person, as in i don't go to church or such unless its for specific occasions such as a christening, marriage, funeral or such, so i would say that i am in the 66%. I'd also like to say that i agree with your point that politicians that base their policies in religion are no better, and i don't want to insult your intelligence, but as i've mentioned above, i have no affiliation with the BNP apart from the points mentioned above.

I'll admit that what i put was a little on the radical side, but i said what i said and i do not believe that it should be allowed for people to spread this in a country as a unit is fighting agaisnt such a law. Again, personally, i believe that freedom of speech should be given everywhere, make no bones about it, but it should be respected. Going onto your point of having the shit beaten out of me, i personally think that i would have the respect to the people of the country where i was not to spread my beliefs if they were not concurrent with that of the majority of the country.

With regards to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, i do not believe that we should have gone in the first place, however, now we are there and have been for some time, i think that we should commit ourselves until the end. It's not right to start something like this and then just leave the people of afghanistan to pick up the pieces by themselves. We should stay until our objective has been achieved. My first posting when i graduate from IOT is Afghanistan and volunteered because i want to do my bit to help these people re-build their country from what i see to be an oppresive and frankly horrible regime, and that i want to instill their right to freedom of speech, which should be used within context, not just for the sake of having it.

I must say, this is quite possibly the best debate i've ever had in the pit. I dont mean to start a fight, i'm merely discussing a point that has been made. If i'm wrong, i'll admit i'm wrong. Until then, i stand by whatever i have said thus far.
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Old 11-07-2009, 07:53 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Black Rat 1214
Ok, in response to your points (this being a forum, not arguing or flaming or whatever, simply expressing my opinion (I'll move onto this point in a second))
1). Considering that the head of our state is a Christian, personally, i believe that it stands to reason that our country as a whole is based upon christian beliefs. As 'proof' if you will, just watching the remembrance service tonight, and the service was taken by members of the christian faith, and all prayers, hymns and so on and so forth were taken with regards to christianity.

3). I couldn't remember quite exactly how it was spelled or pronounced, and i meant no disrespect to anybody about it, but I'd like to make it perfectly clear that i only believe in 1 or 2 of the policies put forward by the BNP, namely the removal of scroungers and so on. If people are working or actively looking for work and really want to stay here and help the economy or any other part of what i perceive to be the british society, then they are welcome and i would not want them to leave under any circumstances. I am most certainly NOT in support of the majority of BNP policies, and therefore, do not support the BNP. (from your post, it seemed to me as though you believed i support them)

4). I'm not saying its OK to use violence on people expressing their opinions, that would in essence boil down to facism and nazism, which i am politically against having studied the topic for 4 years at minimum. I'm saying that while we have servicemen getting killed or injured in the middle east, and yet we have people preaching what our servicemen are fighting as a basis of the mandate (or whatever you call it) of the taliban, it just feels incredibly disrespectful to me, our servicemen and the families of those who have been either killed or injured in conflict with the taliban or other militant groups.

I must say, this is quite possibly the best debate i've ever had in the pit. I dont mean to start a fight, i'm merely discussing a point that has been made. If i'm wrong, i'll admit i'm wrong. Until then, i stand by whatever i have said thus far.


1) By 'head of state' do you mean Brown or that old lady? And I don't really think that allows us to be qualified as a Christian state. We have a clear Christian history, but we have freedom of religion and a majority of people (I think) who don't identify as part of a relgion. But it's a point of semantics and not worth wasting too much time on.

3) I wasn't trying to insinuate that you're a bnp supporter. I meant the question in a very general way, because a fair number of people who complain about sharia law seem to believe we should use ways of stopping it being put in place that would be worse than Sharia law itself. Though you've presented yourself to be above that.

4) I get your point, but personally I don't find it that disrespectful. I mean, the taliban didn't really do anything to warrant being attacked, they were terrible people, but us bombing them just makes people who may have already agreed them more hateful towards us. So it's possible that our servicemen dying is helping to feed people alligning against the imperialist western countries. Realistically the way to deal with these kind of people is to reach out to them in a rational way and teach that it isn't 'Britain Vs Islam'. To me that's the ultimate goal, not chastising someone for having a radical opinion (not that i'm implying you do, i'm talking in a general sense here.)

And ditto on the last statement I quoted.
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Old 11-07-2009, 07:56 PM   #64
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The state religion isn't defined by the religion of the head of state. Are you ******ed?
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Old 11-07-2009, 08:29 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by aaciseric
1) By 'head of state' do you mean Brown or that old lady? And I don't really think that allows us to be qualified as a Christian state. We have a clear Christian history, but we have freedom of religion and a majority of people (I think) who don't identify as part of a relgion. But it's a point of semantics and not worth wasting too much time on.

3) I wasn't trying to insinuate that you're a bnp supporter. I meant the question in a very general way, because a fair number of people who complain about sharia law seem to believe we should use ways of stopping it being put in place that would be worse than Sharia law itself. Though you've presented yourself to be above that.

4) I get your point, but personally I don't find it that disrespectful. I mean, the taliban didn't really do anything to warrant being attacked, they were terrible people, but us bombing them just makes people who may have already agreed them more hateful towards us. So it's possible that our servicemen dying is helping to feed people alligning against the imperialist western countries. Realistically the way to deal with these kind of people is to reach out to them in a rational way and teach that it isn't 'Britain Vs Islam'. To me that's the ultimate goal, not chastising someone for having a radical opinion (not that i'm implying you do, i'm talking in a general sense here.)

And ditto on the last statement I quoted.

I must say i'm impressed by your points! Extremely valid!
1. Yeah, i mean the old lady! I may be wrong, but i think that she's officially recognised as the head of state as she has the power to dissolve parliament at any time, and each year, the parliament must be invited in by the queen. Gordon Brown is a cumulative figure of parliament. But yeah, i can't really be bothered with semantics.

3. I'd have to say i agree with this one. I had a load of good points on this one but my window crashed and i lost all of them. bad times.

4. I would agree that to us until 7/7, there was no warrant to attack the taliban. However, the Americans will see differently, as it has been proven that the taliban were actively funding terrorism and terrorist organisations that had attacked their country. However, i don't think we should have gone along with them. I think that was just Tony Blair saying 'Me too!' to Bush. Still, it happened, and while we're there, we ought to stay. But yeah, it's definately not an issue of one vs the other, and i think that those with whom we are in correspondance with there are aware of that and acknowledge, and largely appreciate our mission in afghanistan.

And stormx? Its quite evident you've not read any of my posts. So i'll just put this to your mind. I'm not a ******, you muppet.

I did have a response to your post, but to be honest, i can't be bothered wasting my time.
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Blackrat has won this thread. That is an awsome post.


This was posted right after I posted said post in a completely different thread... Whups.


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Old 11-07-2009, 08:41 PM   #66
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I refuse to vote in your ridiculous all or nothing poll.
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Old 11-08-2009, 07:27 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Black Rat 1214
I must say i'm impressed by your points! Extremely valid!
1. Yeah, i mean the old lady! I may be wrong, but i think that she's officially recognised as the head of state as she has the power to dissolve parliament at any time, and each year, the parliament must be invited in by the queen. Gordon Brown is a cumulative figure of parliament. But yeah, i can't really be bothered with semantics.



Shame the no monarch has refused royal assent since the early 18th century and that parliament is dissolved when the PM requests it, then.


I wish people would forget this whole 'the queen is still powerful' rubbish.




Also, top tip: referendums have no legal standing in the UK, so a government could just ignore the outcome anyway.

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Old 11-08-2009, 08:28 AM   #68
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personally, I think we should leave the EU, and trade more with the commonwealth, also I wouldn't have though that leaving the EU would stop us trading with EU members
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Old 11-08-2009, 08:45 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by webbtje



Also, top tip: referendums have no legal standing in the UK, so a government could just ignore the outcome anyway.

No government would ever ignore the outcome, it would be suicide for the party
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Old 11-08-2009, 09:14 AM   #70
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I want us to leave the EU because it costs us millions of pounds a day which we don't have and most of our laws are made by people not even from this country.

If we wanted our country to be ruled by a bunch of Europeans then you know what we should've done in 1939.

There is still a free trade organisation which non-EU countries are members of, such as Switzerland and Iceland I believe.



Quote:
Originally Posted by webbtje

Also, top tip: referendums have no legal standing in the UK, so a government could just ignore the outcome anyway.


Depends if the referendum is held before or after the legislation is passed. If it's held afterwards then the government has to act on what the people say, which is why if there ever is a referendum it wil be held before the legislation is passed because they can still choose what they want to do with it.
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Old 11-08-2009, 09:27 AM   #71
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we need to get the f*ck out of the EU!!!!!
this is one thing i agree with nick griffin about, he just takes it too far with his racist mannerisms
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Old 11-08-2009, 09:37 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by metal_al73
we need to get the f*ck out of the EU!!!!!
this is one thing i agree with nick griffin about, he just takes it too far with his racist mannerisms



They're not 'mannerisms', he's simply a racist. It's not a little addition to his platform that's he's 'taking to far', that's the core of his beliefs. He's a racist.
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Old 11-08-2009, 09:45 AM   #73
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I want to say out, but that is simply because we do not use the Euro.

I really haven't got a clue as to what the EU does for us, or what we do for it. I'll have to read up on it. But I think that it would be better to be a part of something than alone in the big blue sea.

(I'll be reading everyone's posts to fill in the blanks)

EDIT2: In fact. I should Re-read the ****ing OP... jesus, today is not a good day for me!
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Old 11-08-2009, 09:46 AM   #74
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I'm not from UK.
But that's ridiculous. The UK depends a lot on the EU in general; and on it's economy, it's traid (import/export) and etc. Leaving it would be detrimental and would probably start a zombie apocalypse.
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Old 11-08-2009, 11:05 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by SlipknotRule93
I want us to leave the EU because it costs us millions of pounds a day which we don't have and most of our laws are made by people not even from this country.


Lolno. Let's look at it closely shall we: every bit of primary and secondary legislation and every bit of case law pre-joining the EU? Every bit of primary and secondary legislation and case law made in the UK and concerning in the UK, which by the way counts for the vast majority of what we call 'law'?



Quote:
Originally Posted by SlipknotRule93
Depends if the referendum is held before or after the legislation is passed. If it's held afterwards then the government has to act on what the people say, which is why if there ever is a referendum it wil be held before the legislation is passed because they can still choose what they want to do with it.


To state the obvious: the government has a habit of completely ignoring what the majority of the country actually wants (see the status of drugs). Parliamentary sovereignty dictates that, effectively, it can do whatever it fancies, and that includes completely ignoring the outcome of a referendum, should it wish to.

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Old 11-08-2009, 11:32 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Black Rat 1214
As i mentioned before, i'm not a religious person, as in i don't go to church or such unless its for specific occasions such as a christening, marriage, funeral or such, so i would say that i am in the 66%. I'd also like to say that i agree with your point that politicians that base their policies in religion are no better, and i don't want to insult your intelligence, but as i've mentioned above, i have no affiliation with the BNP apart from the points mentioned above.

I'll admit that what i put was a little on the radical side, but i said what i said and i do not believe that it should be allowed for people to spread this in a country as a unit is fighting agaisnt such a law. Again, personally, i believe that freedom of speech should be given everywhere, make no bones about it, but it should be respected. Going onto your point of having the shit beaten out of me, i personally think that i would have the respect to the people of the country where i was not to spread my beliefs if they were not concurrent with that of the majority of the country.


Freedom of speech is freedom of speech is......freedom of speech. It means the right to say what you want when you want and where you want without fear of reprisal. Now I understand their are concerns about cultural sensitivity and whatnot but I don't think it's enough to deny people freedom of speech. I personally think that it is not only a right but a duty in fact that people should voice beliefs that dissent against majority opinion. Let's take an extreme example.

Say it's the 1800's again and slavery is rife, moreover the large majority of people are still in favour of it. I think I would be justified in speaking out against slavery even if it was the majority opinion and I hope you'd agree with me. Again this is an extreme example yes but it serves well to demonstrate the principle.

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With regards to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, i do not believe that we should have gone in the first place, however, now we are there and have been for some time, i think that we should commit ourselves until the end. It's not right to start something like this and then just leave the people of afghanistan to pick up the pieces by themselves. We should stay until our objective has been achieved. My first posting when i graduate from IOT is Afghanistan and volunteered because i want to do my bit to help these people re-build their country from what i see to be an oppresive and frankly horrible regime, and that i want to instill their right to freedom of speech, which should be used within context, not just for the sake of having it.


Well what 'context' would justify freedom of speech? I mean I don't think cultural concerns are really enough to justify preventing it. If something is abhorrent you should speak up and be allowed to speak up.

As for the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq I think that commiting ourselves to the end is impossible. The longer we stay, the more the resentment grows, the more extremism takes hold and the less chance they have of rebuilding.
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Old 11-08-2009, 11:43 AM   #77
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I think if it benefits us but we still get to keep our identity, then i'm in, if we switch to the Euro and just start slowly becoming turned into somewhere like France, then thats difference, and i'm not saying there is anything wrong with France as i have never been there, but this is England (or United Kingdom).

I think British people shouldn't be afraid of their nationality, sure, there is some Irish heritage in me, but i'm not gonna be one of these idiots who claims to be Irish as i have lived in England my whole life, i am English and proud to be, and people shouldn't be afraid of offending people when they say that because its completely harmless to love ones country, then again, personally i love my country but don't particularly care for the people running it.
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Old 11-08-2009, 12:59 PM   #78
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Except it's not Brown's (Labours) idea, it's the Conservatives idea. And it would take years.

Thread hijack: vote Lib Dems, then us potential univeristy students can have a blast.
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Old 11-08-2009, 01:10 PM   #79
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Thread hijack: vote Lib Dems, then us potential univeristy students can have a blast.




http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/...ts-tuition-fees
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Old 11-08-2009, 01:22 PM   #80
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That is actually ridiculous. Lowering rates was one of their biggest vote-for pledges for us young voters, what a tragic way to lose any chance they had.

Ok, let's just stick with Labour! Brown!! woo
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