Go Back   UG Community @ Ultimate-Guitar.Com > Music > Bands & Artists > Blues & Jazz
User Name  
Password
Search:

Reply
Old 02-03-2010, 06:54 PM   #41
sir jacko
Registered User
 
sir jacko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: england
for me Blind In 1 Ear and fretboard12 are spot on.

@tombstone, how did pre-war blues diverse in styles, and SRV was unoriginal? SRV undoubtably had a wider palette to choose from and included alot of funk, rock & roll and Jazz etc (A study showed that in 11 of his songs he played more 'Jazz' licks than 'Hendrix licks and twice as many original or adapted licks than Albert King licks) He's just gone through the same process as every other blues player. Your showing examples (Lemon, Hopkins) of early recorded blues. How can you be sure that they wasn't the clone of Blues Traveller X? I'm sure ifyour man lemon, and hopkins had radios they'd be alot similar. I don't mean to sound challenging bu the way, it just the way its come out ;p
__________________
rhcp 4 life.
sir jacko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2010, 07:17 PM   #42
tombstonehand
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by sir jacko
I'm sure ifyour man lemon, and hopkins had radios they'd be alot similar. I don't mean to sound challenging bu the way, it just the way its come out ;p


That's just stupid. So hearing more music means we have to all sound the same? Shouldn't that mean the opposite?

Contrary to what you and fretboard12 have said, there were records and radios in the homes of most country bluesmen (except Lemon, as he was performing very early on). This is why so many country bluesmen had varied repertoire that included ragtime, dixieland jazz, and even pop and country tunes. According to Johnny Shines, Robert Johnson did Jimmie Rodgers (the Blue Yodeler) and Bing Crosby tunes when he performed live. He even did polkas!

Even Lemon heard other blues performers (mostly piano-backed female blues singers like Ma Rainey), and he certainly heard the pop and ragtime music of his day.

Exposure to popular music is not an excuse for lacking creativity.

Last edited by tombstonehand : 02-03-2010 at 08:36 PM.
tombstonehand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2010, 07:29 PM   #43
carmour
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by sir jacko
for me Blind In 1 Ear and fretboard12 are spot on.

A study showed that in 11 of his songs he played more 'Jazz' licks than 'Hendrix licks and twice as many original or adapted licks than Albert King licks


LOL what? what study is this? I'd like to know who did it or where I can find it, because it'd be pretty damn hard to conclusively say what licks are 'jazz' 'hendrix' or 'albert king', there are so many diff factors involved eg are we talking exact licks or licks based off hendrix/albert licks? or what.. seems like a lolworthy study

Last edited by carmour : 02-03-2010 at 07:30 PM.
carmour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2010, 12:53 AM   #44
Blind In 1 Ear
Git-Man
 
Blind In 1 Ear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by carmour
zzz, completely missing the point. I imagine we'd be able to talk out this argument in about 10 mins IRL, but I really seem to fail at getting my point across on the internetz

you have no point. not a good one anyway. you think hes unorignal? great, how is he any more unoriginal than any other blues player? tell me really, who sounded like stevie? stevie sounds like a mix of a lot of people. i dont hear anyone else put those ideas together like him (expcept for post SRV players). jeff healey had some similar licks, but was more jazzy and wild and rock than stevie. stevie was pretty true to the blues throughout his career.

so whats my point? you cant really pin stevie down to one player. sure he has a lot of albert king in him, but he also had a lot of other stuff that albert never did. again, show me these "countless players" that he sounds exactly like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tombstonehand
There is a lot of unoriginality among blues players, especially in the past 50 or so years, but that doesn't mean it's excusable. We should not praise mediocrity.

theres only so much you can do with blues until its not blues anymore. all blues players sound similar. but same with any musician in any genre.
Quote:
I never want to hear another electric blues band do an "original song" based around the boogie shuffle or the stop-time Hoochie Coochie Man lick. I don't want to hear another solo that sounds like a variation on "The Thrill is Gone", or "Stormy Monday", or "Crosscut Saw".

i think you take music too seriously.

Quote:
SRV didn't start this problem, but he was one of the main perpetrators. And people like him are the reason the blues is practically a dead art-form now, and the reason why most people think all blues songs sound exactly the same. The blues heard by the general public DOES all sound the same.

thats not really SRV's fault actually. the reason most blues sounds the same post stevie is because a lot of players copy stevie almost note for note. despite what you may think, stevie put his own twist on these licks. again, just look at the stevie clones. no one says "he sounds just like albert king" or "he sounds just like lonnie mack". everyone knows they sound like stevie and guess what? they admit SRV was their biggest influence. so again, SRV cant really be pinned down to one player like these clones can. the only one ill except is albert king. but he was his favorite play so im not surprised. but he still did a lot that king never did.

Quote:
I've seen people say that John Mayer (who I bring up because, when he does play blues, is a straight SRV clone) is gonna start a lot of renewed interest in the blues. I don't see it happening. The artists I see getting young people interested in the blues, are Jack White (from the White Stripes and the Raconteurs) and Dan Auerbach (from the Black Keys). The blues has to evolve and diversify if it's gonna stay alive.

actually the single most infuence on young people getting into the blues is actually stevie. maybe clapton too. he was for me. literally every guitarists ive met who plays even just a little blues is infuencesd by stevie.

the only thing i can say is that SRV really stuck to his licks. but then again, so do most blues players. so again i dont see how he was any less creative than anyone else. if you listen to anyone long enough you'll know their style well. i think some of you take this too seriously. its just music man. no one is 100% original anyway. just listen to the music you like and dont listen to the stuff you dont like. honestly, im fine with people not liking stevie. i was more upset with some of the comments like saying if you like him you know nothing about blues.
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/timmy47?feature=mhee

check out my youtube page for some songs.

Last edited by Blind In 1 Ear : 02-04-2010 at 01:14 AM.
Blind In 1 Ear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2010, 01:22 AM   #45
carmour
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
There is no logical end to this discussion..

I like some of his music. It's enjoyable, he's a great guitarist, but if given the choice, I'd much rather listen to Albert King, Otis Rush, B.B. King, T Bone, Freddie King, or even his brother Jimmie.

Yeah, SRV sounded great, but threads like this and the SRV thread (RIDICULOUSLY long) prove that he is much more popular among this generations players than any of the other electric blues player. This is what irks me, because I never got the big deal about him. I listened to all his albums a few years ago, gave them 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th listens. I really didn't see what the big deal was about him and I still don't. He does a good Hendrix cover sure, and Lenny has some of the coolest playing i've heard, but most of the other stuff does nothing for me.
carmour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2010, 05:14 AM   #46
sir jacko
Registered User
 
sir jacko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: england
The study I was on about was some phycological test thing that analysied what patterns would appear based on what bar of a song, mood, tempo etc. To me, It's pretty easy to define a jazz styled lick next to a hendrix lick or a king lick.

@tombstone, wouldn't you agree that if a guitarist heard a 'cool' idea that they liked on the radio, they would lift it into their repertoire? Thats the point I was making.
__________________
rhcp 4 life.
sir jacko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2010, 04:50 PM   #47
Blind In 1 Ear
Git-Man
 
Blind In 1 Ear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by carmour
There is no logical end to this discussion..

I like some of his music. It's enjoyable, he's a great guitarist, but if given the choice, I'd much rather listen to Albert King, Otis Rush, B.B. King, T Bone, Freddie King, or even his brother Jimmie.

Yeah, SRV sounded great, but threads like this and the SRV thread (RIDICULOUSLY long) prove that he is much more popular among this generations players than any of the other electric blues player. This is what irks me, because I never got the big deal about him. I listened to all his albums a few years ago, gave them 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th listens. I really didn't see what the big deal was about him and I still don't. He does a good Hendrix cover sure, and Lenny has some of the coolest playing i've heard, but most of the other stuff does nothing for me.

i think thats the problem for most arguments against him. i see this a lot for "newer" players. usually they get lots of success and then some people are like "well hey, whats the big deal? what about _____?" its only really for people that have legendary status and success. people like clapton, SRV and hendrix have huge followings but theres always a group of people ready to shoot them down as well as try to make the people who listen to them feel stupid. i dont see the point in that. its just music.

i dont agree that SRV was the greatest ever, but he was a good player technically speaking and i happen to enjoy his music. not as much as i used to however. it seems to you that SRV is what buddy guy is to me. i listen to his stuff, some of its alright but i dont see the big deal. i understand his importance and influence, but i just dont see the big deal. and tons of people think hes the best. clapton said he was the best living guitarist. i dont agree with that at all but whatever

you like the older guys better, thats cool. i tend to lean towards the "newer" blues players who extend into rock as well. i guess maybe because i heard them first i have more of a connection to them. also, the old guys are great, but they pretty much only play blues. i like variation. so i cant listen to them all the time. my favorite blues player right now is probably jeff healey. my fovorite overall gutiarist is eric johnson.
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/timmy47?feature=mhee

check out my youtube page for some songs.
Blind In 1 Ear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2010, 06:41 PM   #48
carmour
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
^ I can see why you'd think that about Buddy Guy, pretty much all his stuff from 1980-present is SHITE and his tone is so ridiculously bad.

If you want to hear good buddy guy you need to hear him with Muddy Waters or Junior Wells, or solo playing in the 60s and 70s. Anything other than that is pretty average. That aside, he's pretty hit and miss even then. I'm sure i've posted this clip a thousand times by now, but this is why Buddy Guy is rated:

And it's not the fact that I want to make people who listen to SRV feel stupid, its more that I want them to get past him and experience all the other artists without getting fixated to one, and thus becoming another twat in a hat

Last edited by carmour : 02-04-2010 at 06:43 PM.
carmour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2010, 09:30 PM   #49
carmour
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Yeah, that clip is a prime example of his raw soulful playing.. ridiculously fiery and no one else was playing like that at the time (he'd been playing like that since the 60s o_o)
carmour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2010, 12:25 AM   #50
Blind In 1 Ear
Git-Man
 
Blind In 1 Ear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by carmour
^ I can see why you'd think that about Buddy Guy, pretty much all his stuff from 1980-present is SHITE and his tone is so ridiculously bad.

If you want to hear good buddy guy you need to hear him with Muddy Waters or Junior Wells, or solo playing in the 60s and 70s. Anything other than that is pretty average. That aside, he's pretty hit and miss even then. I'm sure i've posted this clip a thousand times by now, but this is why Buddy Guy is rated:

And it's not the fact that I want to make people who listen to SRV feel stupid, its more that I want them to get past him and experience all the other artists without getting fixated to one, and thus becoming another twat in a hat

well the whole thing about putting down people for liking SRV was more for tombstonehand who said that SRV is the favorite guitar player for those who know nothing about blues. granted, in some cases that might actually be true. but its not really fair to make calls like that. so what if someone likes him and doesnt listen to a lot of other blues players? oh well. let people listen to what they want to. but if you really want to be a blues player, yeah you probably should look beyond stevie. i think the stevie thing has been done to death. but on the other hand, play whatever makes you feel good i guess.

and yeah thats a good clip. older stuff by buddy i usually find to be better. ive always thought he was a good blues singer though. i think you've inspired me to look deeper into buddy guy after that clip
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/timmy47?feature=mhee

check out my youtube page for some songs.
Blind In 1 Ear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2010, 12:37 AM   #51
ethan_hanus
The BKP Guy
 
ethan_hanus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cedar Park, Texas
SRV, a bad guitarist? That's like saying the moon is made from cheese and doesn't really exist. Sure, he doesn't compare to most metal artists playing ability, but for a Blues player of his time, he would kick any shredder of his time ass.

They say its simple music, but sometimes simple music is the best kind of music. Nobody really cares how fast you can play, they care more about the fact of, can you write a good song and play it perfectly using your skill. SRV was a master of playing his songs perfectly, and as complicated as they were, simple compared to today's standards. But for Blues he was ahead of his time.

So no, SRV was not a bad guitarist.
Neither was Hendrix, or George Thurgood, or Buddy Guy, or any of the blues guitarists, all were great guitarists, and I think they were alot more talented than our modern day musicians, especially this new emo British crap rock, experimental shit.
ethan_hanus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2010, 04:01 AM   #52
tombstonehand
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind In 1 Ear
well the whole thing about putting down people for liking SRV was more for tombstonehand who said that SRV is the favorite guitar player for those who know nothing about blues. granted, in some cases that might actually be true. but its not really fair to make calls like that. so what if someone likes him and doesnt listen to a lot of other blues players? oh well. let people listen to what they want to. but if you really want to be a blues player, yeah you probably should look beyond stevie. i think the stevie thing has been done to death. but on the other hand, play whatever makes you feel good i guess.


I don't have anything against people who listen to SRV, I just believe most SRV-fanatics tend to know very little about the genre besides him and those connected to him. I'm not on a crusade against those people, I'm just saying they exist and there are a lot of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ethan_hanus
SRV, a bad guitarist? That's like saying the moon is made from cheese and doesn't really exist. Sure, he doesn't compare to most metal artists playing ability, but for a Blues player of his time, he would kick any shredder of his time ass.


Assuming that metal shredding is a standard by which anything should be compared shows that you know nothing about music at all. SRV kicks the ass of any shredder, from any time. For all I've said about SRV, he at least played actual music, and he played it very well. Shredding is note-diarrhea, and doesn't take nearly the talent that most novices assume. There's nothing wrong with speed, Django Reinhardt and Lonnie Johnson both played some of the fastest licks I've ever heard, but shred-metal is mindless scale-bashing.
tombstonehand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2010, 01:46 PM   #53
Blind In 1 Ear
Git-Man
 
Blind In 1 Ear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by tombstonehand
I don't have anything against people who listen to SRV, I just believe most SRV-fanatics tend to know very little about the genre besides him and those connected to him. I'm not on a crusade against those people, I'm just saying they exist and there are a lot of them.

well sure and i said there are some. but still, there are plenty of people who know tons about blues and still like him a lot. one has nothing to do with the other. i think you are assuming too much. you still give off this "im better than you" vibe by saying things like that. even if someone doesnt look much further than SRV, so what? for example, personally like the newer players better than the older ones. like eric clapton, SRV, hendrix, jeff healey, rory gallagher, philip sayce, joe bonamassa, etc... i mean, dont get me wrong i love the older generation too but not as much as the newer. is that a crime? so what if i listen to newer guys more? so what if someone ONLY listens to newer guys? maybe they just dont like the older stuff. i think its good to go back to the roots of any genre just to know where its all coming from. you dont have to like it though.



Quote:
Assuming that metal shredding is a standard by which anything should be compared shows that you know nothing about music at all. SRV kicks the ass of any shredder, from any time. For all I've said about SRV, he at least played actual music, and he played it very well. Shredding is note-diarrhea, and doesn't take nearly the talent that most novices assume. There's nothing wrong with speed, Django Reinhardt and Lonnie Johnson both played some of the fastest licks I've ever heard, but shred-metal is mindless scale-bashing.

see, its things like this that make you sound like an idiot. there is no "actual" music. shred metal is music the same as anything else. just because you happen to not like it, doesnt make it not real music. theres no "fake music" its all music. music is just organized sounds. some people like fast agressive music. its an emotional release for them. who are you to say its not real music? theres no such thing as good and bad music, just different music. you could judge playing and composing skills sure, but in the end, you either like it or you dont.
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/timmy47?feature=mhee

check out my youtube page for some songs.
Blind In 1 Ear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2010, 11:21 PM   #54
rocknroll93
UG's very own Convict.
 
rocknroll93's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: In Melbourne Australia! yeah....
look everyone, music is subjective. For me, I love my stevie ray vaughan, he is my idol, but I also love john lee hooker, muddy waters, george thorogood, ry cooder, johnny winters, robert johnson... ect ect. its all prefrence. some dont' like what others like. I for one dont like metal or pop/hip hop ect. so really, just listen to what YOU want to listen to. If robert johnson had a radoi/tv back then he would of stolen licks from others. hey, he probably did, but he would of seen them play out on their front porch or in the street.


there, thats my 2 cents worth.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by element4433
One time I watched a dog lick his own dick for twenty minutes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roc8995
No.


Well, technically it could be done, but only in the same way that you could change a cat into a hamburger. It's an unpleasant process, and nobody is happy with the result.
rocknroll93 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2010, 11:33 PM   #55
tombstonehand
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by rocknroll93
look everyone, music is subjective. For me, I love my stevie ray vaughan, he is my idol, but I also love john lee hooker, muddy waters, george thorogood, ry cooder, johnny winters, robert johnson... ect ect. its all prefrence. some dont' like what others like. I for one dont like metal or pop/hip hop ect. so really, just listen to what YOU want to listen to. If robert johnson had a radoi/tv back then he would of stolen licks from others. hey, he probably did, but he would of seen them play out on their front porch or in the street.


there, thats my 2 cents worth.


Robert Johnson did "steal" licks from people (almost all of his songs are based on someone else's song). And he mostly got them from records (Kokomo Arnold, Lonnie Johnson, Skip James, Blind Blake). I don't know where you people got the idea that most country bluesmen didn't have radios and record players.

Johnny Shines claimed that Robert Johnson could hear any song on the radio and immediately play it back. He was said to be especially adept at polkas (Shines called him a "polka hound").
tombstonehand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2010, 11:27 AM   #56
ZachVan
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2009
Hey, dipshits! Did the guy who started this post say he wanted four pages of amateur fückheads having an online pissing contest?! No, he did not! The whole point of this guy's post was to find a CREDIBLE LITERARY EXAMPLE of someone stating that Stevie Ray was a bad guitar player, not to READ YOUR MALFORMED OPINIONS.
ZachVan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2010, 05:34 PM   #57
carmour
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZachVan
Hey, dipshits! Did the guy who started this post say he wanted four pages of amateur fückheads having an online pissing contest?! No, he did not! The whole point of this guy's post was to find a CREDIBLE LITERARY EXAMPLE of someone stating that Stevie Ray was a bad guitar player, not to READ YOUR MALFORMED OPINIONS.


GTFO.

If that's what he wanted, he should be out doing his own research instead of relying on other people to do it for him. THIS IS THE INTERNETS. ONCE AGAIN GTFO CAPSCAPSCAPSCAPS
carmour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2010, 09:58 AM   #58
David Sertl
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
I think he was a great guitarist. I'm sure he has borrowed many ideas from his idols, but imo everybody does that to a certain extent. I don't think that there are many musicians who came up with all original never-before-used new ideas. SRV wasn't new, but he played with fire and passion, and that makes him enough of a good musician.
David Sertl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2010, 11:26 AM   #59
Carswell98
*heavy sigh*
 
Carswell98's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Quote:
Originally Posted by tombstonehand
Assuming that metal shredding is a standard by which anything should be compared shows that you know nothing about music at all. SRV kicks the ass of any shredder, from any time. For all I've said about SRV, he at least played actual music, and he played it very well. Shredding is note-diarrhea, and doesn't take nearly the talent that most novices assume. There's nothing wrong with speed, Django Reinhardt and Lonnie Johnson both played some of the fastest licks I've ever heard, but shred-metal is mindless scale-bashing.



YOU don't like shred, therefore it's bad?.... wrong

if shredding is as easy as you claim it is, I would like to hear you replicate Get Out of My Yard by Paul Gilbert, or Wonderful Slippery Thing by Guthrie Govan, or Technical Difficulties by Racer X, go ahead, record and post the covers, and if they are as easy as your asshat statement claims, I'll eat my words.

certain shred music is at times, note diarrhea, but, saying all of it is, is like saying all blues guitarists are fat middle aged white men, it might have some degree of truth, but it's a bullshit generalization, and you bloody well know it is.

my suggestion is that you open your mind to new ideas, you might be surprised with what you end up liking.
__________________
Last.Fm

“If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.”
― Terry Pratchett

qft...



Jeremy Clarkson is a knob.
Carswell98 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 01:03 PM   #60
ZachVan
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by sir jacko
Hi Guys!

I'm looking for some material where people (a credible source i.e book, magazine etc) have said that SRV isn't such a great guitarist, and is over rated-or something along these lines. This is only because every book I read is singing his praises, which is good, (he's my fav guitarist lol!) but bad for dissertation :-\

Cheers!


Hey mang, did you ever end up finding anything useful?
ZachVan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:18 PM.

Forum Archives / About / Terms of Use / Advertise / Contact / Ultimate-Guitar.Com © 2014
Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.