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Old 01-15-2011, 03:11 PM   #21
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I think another thing that should be part of this thread, is any website selling counterfeit guitars, should be reported to the respectable manufacture(s) they're faking.

Remember eepiphone.com? I sent an e-mail to Gibson about it, and it's no longer a functional website. I say that because you can still visit the website, but it's a white page with a 20 character code of some sort.
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Old 01-18-2011, 08:03 PM   #22
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I think another thing that should be part of this thread, is any website selling counterfeit guitars, should be reported to the respectable manufacture(s) they're faking.

Remember eepiphone.com? I sent an e-mail to Gibson about it, and it's no longer a functional website. I say that because you can still visit the website, but it's a white page with a 20 character code of some sort.


I'm actually planning to send all the companies I find a counterfeit of an email about tradetang once I get a more comprehensive list - We need them as a resource to know exactly what we're talking about, and we'd be doing the job of keeping people informed a disservice if we took them down with just two Les Pauls and a JEM profiled.
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Old 01-19-2011, 06:55 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by necrosis1193

I'm actually planning to send all the companies I find a counterfeit of an email about tradetang once I get a more comprehensive list - We need them as a resource to know exactly what we're talking about, and we'd be doing the job of keeping people informed a disservice if we took them down with just two Les Pauls and a JEM profiled.


I totally agree with using examples, but I mean, reporting the actual companies counterfeiting other guitar companies is what I mean.

I think it might be a good idea to e-mail eBay and other auction sites to be aware of the counterfeit guitars and their sellers. I know that they can't page through all of the ones that are there, but they still have to monitor what's posted on their websites and should be able to report them to the counterfeited brand.
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Old 01-19-2011, 09:51 PM   #24
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I will start by saying that this is an interesting topic; I will be as FAIR and BALANCED as possible. I do not support the counterfeit industry, but I feel some people are getting a little gung-ho with their opinions. What I am going to say might be a little controversial but bear with me! I have done lots of research on the matter of the years so i consider myself somewhat knowledgable.

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I'm actually planning to send all the companies I find a counterfeit of an email about tradetang once I get a more comprehensive list - We need them as a resource to know exactly what we're talking about, and we'd be doing the job of keeping people informed a disservice if we took them down with just two Les Pauls and a JEM profiled.


Err do you seriously think the major players in the guitar building business do not know about these sites? Tradetang is one of the biggest along with DHLgate. They have been around for years before you decided to create "A list".

Hell if any of you knew what tradetang was, you would realise you cannot sue them.

First of all, in China, copyright laws are nonexistent, so nothing can be done about tradetang or their sellers.

Secondly, Tradetang and other websites like that are essentially a Chinese eBay, they are the intermediary. On tradetang, sellers and buyers sign up to buy and sell. None of the guitars sold on Tradetang are the websites property. In theory, Tradetang is more of an escrow service, the buyer sends a payment for a guitar, Tradetang keeps the payment until the buyer acknowledges that the guitar is received, and then the funds are transferred to the seller. Reading the feedback of a seller on tradetang usually gives a good impression of what people are likely to receive.

Chinese copies aren’t as bad as they used to be, many people are actually repeat buyers because what they have been receiving has been somewhat usable. I have played a few that other people have imported and they weren’t bad guitars at all and would consider buying from them again. Chinese sellers have realised that although producing a terrible guitar makes them a quick buck, it actually means they cant do repeat business, so now they have started producing reasonable guitars, whilst they make smaller amounts of money, they will make more eventually because of repeat business and word of mouth.

Thirdly, yes it is illegal to import a counterfeit guitar into the states and Europe regardless of the quantity. However it is very hard to enforce, the buyer can claim that they thought it was real and play dumb, the guitar is usually returned to sender. Generally customs do not go after the odd one or two guitars, though they will keep an eye on the address if large quantities go to a single address.
It is illegal to sell the counterfeit guitar within the US and Europe as a GENUINE product, however, it can be sold if stated that if it is a fake.

In conclusion, major guitar manufacturers know of these sites, and your support and email will make no difference. Gibson in fact recently put up a "How to spot a fake Gibson" Article on their website. That’s pretty much all they can do.

To be as fair and balanced as possible, many major manufacturers say "Such and such amount of fake guitars that are copies of ours came into the country and we lost XXXXX huge amount of money." These figures are blown way out of proportion, I doubt people who do buy these guitars would ever have the money to buy a real Gibson anyway. In fact in an adverse way, the more people see people play A Gibson (Alike) product on stage it could actually BOOST real sales of the actual thing. People look at the guy playing the fake and think "Hey that’s a Gibson; I might go and get one of them!" A type of brand exposure if you will!

One example whilst different is somewhat related, is that my band released a CD a few years ago, we sold a decent amount of copies. But then the CD was put on torrent websites, where it was downloaded thousands of times. I don’t view it as lost profit, because people who downloaded the CD probably weren’t going to buy it anyway, however word of mouth of the band passes through and we could potentially make up for in Gig ticket sales and Merchandise sales. Now I have to look at it as a form of promotion.

I laugh at the people who say "It’s from china, it must be crap". It’s likely many have never played recent Chinese copies and have no basis to form an opinion, so they spout off what someone else said. These fake guitars are built in similar if not same factories by the same if not similar Chinese workers with the same if not similar techniques. It’s possible it could be on par with the legitimate imported instruments.

My final thought, Gibson’s quality has been going through the grinder for a long time, terrible sloppy fit and finish on many of their guitars, who knows maybe the Chinese fakes could turn out to be better guitars eventually? To really combat the counterfeit guitar business, the only real way to do it would be to drop the ludicrous price of some new instruments and up the quality. Western manufacturers whack on ridiculous premiums on instruments and put them out of reach of mere mortals.
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Old 01-19-2011, 09:54 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r0ckth3d34n
I totally agree with using examples, but I mean, reporting the actual companies counterfeiting other guitar companies is what I mean.

I think it might be a good idea to e-mail eBay and other auction sites to be aware of the counterfeit guitars and their sellers. I know that they can't page through all of the ones that are there, but they still have to monitor what's posted on their websites and should be able to report them to the counterfeited brand.


It is allowable to sell a counterfeit guitar on ebay, its just you cant use brand names and certain phrases. For example you could put up "Les paul copy" and it couldnt be taken down, because thats what it is. If they were trying to pass off the ad as if the guitar were a REAL Fender, then yes they will take it down.
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Old 01-19-2011, 09:57 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r0ckth3d34n
I think another thing that should be part of this thread, is any website selling counterfeit guitars, should be reported to the respectable manufacture(s) they're faking.

Remember eepiphone.com? I sent an e-mail to Gibson about it, and it's no longer a functional website. I say that because you can still visit the website, but it's a white page with a 20 character code of some sort.


It was probably taken down because the domain name was registered as a DOTCOM, and not registered or hosted in a country that allows that sort of thing, like china or russia.

Whats also makes interesting (Though not completely related) reading is this!

Quote:
First to Register

So now that I have (I hope) convinced you that it makes sense to protect a trademark in China, the next step is to explain how to do so. Easy. Register it. Plain and simple. China is a "first to register" country, which means that unless your trademark is a well known mark (and let me assure you it almost certainly is not, and you definitely do not want to be litigating this issue in any event), whoever registers it in China first gets it. Put another way, to expect trademark protection in China, foreign companies must register their trademarks in China — and the prudent company does this before going in.

There are actually a number of people in China who make a living by usurping foreign trademarks and then selling a license to that trademark to the original license holder. Once one comes to grip with the fact that China, like most of the rest of the world is a “first to file” country, one can understand how easy this usurpation is, and also, how easy it is to prevent it.

The fact that you are manufacturing your product in China just for export does not in any way minimize the need for you to protect your trademark. Once someone registers “your” trademark in China, they have the power to stop your goods at the border and prevent them from leaving China.

China's trademark requirements are actually quite similar to those in most other countries. The trademark must not conflict with an existing Chinese trademark and it must be distinctive. China allows for registration of all marks for goods, services, collective marks and certification marks.

In deciding what to trademark, foreign companies must consider all sorts of things. Take Starbucks, for instance. Starbucks registered more than 200 trademarks in China. It has registered Starbucks in English and the translation of “star” and “bucks” together in Chinese. Any foreign company strategizing about what to trademark in China must have a fluent Mandarin speaker to assist. Indeed, some of the very largest foreign companies register trademarks in other dialects used in China as well.

China’s Trademark Office maintains a centralized database of all registered and applied-for trademarks. Trademark applications that pass a preliminary screening are published by the Trademark Office and subject to a 3-month period for objection. If there are no objections within this 3-month period, or if the Chinese Trademark Office rejects the objections as frivolous, the trademark is registered. If the Chinese Trademark Office supports an objection, it will deny the application. Denied applications may be appealed to the State Administration of Industry and Commerce Trademark Review & Approval Board and then to the People’s Court. Based on our experience, objections to trademarks are rare.


Infact it affected a large musical instrument manufacturer recently who cannot sell their product as the real thing (Even though it is) within China, because a Chinese businessman trademarked the name first within China and now sells genuine fakes as the real thing. (Within China)
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Old 01-22-2011, 02:20 PM   #27
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I'm looking at buying a Ibanez Jem guitar from a local music store that someone sold it to although it does not say JEM on the headstock, it says Ibanez but then in small letters it says RG or something like that, everything else on the guitar is exactly similar to the original, is JEM the only thing that can be printed on a true JEM headstock?
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Old 01-27-2011, 05:58 PM   #28
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Anyone know if the Ebay seller "mijsixstringskatana" is legit, i'm thinking of buying a Jazzmaster from them, they have ALOT of highest ratings on Ebay. Would be great if someone could help me out over PM with this.
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Old 01-27-2011, 08:22 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Schuett2
I'm looking at buying a Ibanez Jem guitar from a local music store that someone sold it to although it does not say JEM on the headstock, it says Ibanez but then in small letters it says RG or something like that, everything else on the guitar is exactly similar to the original, is JEM the only thing that can be printed on a true JEM headstock?


A JEM will ONLY say JEM on the headstock. If it says RG, either the neck is a replacement or the entire thing is fake.

EDIT: As for guitar #2, it looks like a Les Paul Supreme copy. Some of those didn't come with pickguards depending on the finish options. The middle of the burst is fine, I've owned a genuine LP that was that dark. The pickup selector ring is missing though and it's a quilt top rather than the flame in the description.

The headstock inlay looks like an attempted copy of the Supreme inlay but the copyist failed miserably. The Supreme inlay has a picture of the Earth with a ribbon saying supreme. There are no legit Gibsons with a circular Custom Shop inlay on the front of the headstock.

The fretboard inlay is from a limited edition release from a few years ago, I believe it was called the Les Paul Tree of Life. That guitar had a natural finish and looked very different though.

EDIT2: Also, the binding on the headstock should be the same multi ply as the binding on the body and it shouldn't start halfway through the first fret. The bridge looks more squared than a real tune-o-matic as well.

EDIT3: The strap buttons are an incorrect shape.

EDIT4: On guitar one, that's an R9, not an R8 like the description. R8s only have plain tops.
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Old 01-30-2011, 03:01 PM   #30
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Never, never buy a knockoff guitar like this from overseas/online, mainly because once you get it you own it no matter what, that is if you even get it or the guitar you order. There are some very good knock offs out there I have played many and they play and sound great but you need to try them first so you want to get it from a place you can actually see and handle the guitar. A lot of the time the pics are not of the actual guitar you'll get. Even buying from a shop doesn't mean you will get the real deal a lot of shops get duped and buy fake not knowing until an expert says for sure. Right now there are more fake LTDs, Epiphones, PRS SE series, and Squires out there than there are high end knockoff guitars and the people who own them do not have a clue. I come across more and more Ibanez, LTD and Epi fakes a lot more than I do Gibson or Fender and these are on walls of the smaller Mom and Pop shops and pawn shops. You can't be sure that Ibanez at your local store is the real deal some will fool 95% of the people out there.

As far as buying counterfeits, I ran this by a lawyer friend of mine and no matter what people say it is not illegal to purchase a knockoff here in the states how ever it is illegal to manufacture, import, sell or resell it as the real deal. Even then selling a trademarked item knowingly that it is a fake is a small fine with no jail time. You could get in trouble ordering one from overseas under the import clause in the laws. Remember every imported item has to go thru customs! It actually amazes me they get thru at all. I know several people at the flea markets that have been busted for selling everything from counterfeit guitars to Coach Pocketbooks and they are out that day go to court pay the fine and back at the flea market the next Sunday they have to be arrested several times before they see jail time. As far as registering a trademark, there are plenty of trademarks registered in China the only problem is no one enforces it this is one of the reasons Gibson built their own plant in China a lot of the plants that build guitars for the major brands make more than ordered so they can sell them at cheap prices in black market back door deals for a lot less than you pay for the stuff coming thru the actual company. You get the same exact guitar just do not have to pay the higher prices the actual company charges. I know this because one of the guys I grew up with worked as an interpreter at the US Embassy in Beijing, China and the companies sell stuff right out of the factories for pennies on the dollar and they do it everywhere.

Basically buying knockoffs is one of those buyer beware deals. I used to go to NYC almost every weekend and as far as I can remember you could buy knockoff stuff practically on ever street corner it's only been in the last 5 years or so that they have been cracking down.

Truthfully any guitar of the same price like Agile, Jay Turser, Austin, Epiphone, etc will be a better choice at least you get some comfort in knowing you have some recourse if the guitar isn't right.


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Old 01-31-2011, 06:02 PM   #31
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There are no telling how many people who believe their Les Pauls are real just because of the serial numbers.

I have ran the serial numbers stamped on some of these Chinese guitars and they all have stolen Serial Numbers. They show to be real....
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Old 02-06-2011, 10:10 AM   #32
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I would like to add to Necroses1193's post if I may.

Knowingly buying a counterfeit IS ILLEGAL in the US, Canada and most of Europe.

In the US you face heavy fines, and or jail time for knowingly purchasing and/or selling counterfeits.
So not only are You breaking the law by buying one of these POS guitars, you're also enabling this to continue. Sites like tradetang, pass these guitars off as real, and when the buyer realizes they were ripped off they too will pass the guitar along as a genuine article.

This is a major problem for not only the buyer's (us) but it's also a major problem for legitimate retailers as well.
We see countless thread's here with titles such as "Is this fake" or "Is this brand X guitar real". So please as Necrosis said, if you find a 3,000 dollar guitar on a website thats selling for 300 bucks, use some common sense.




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Old 02-06-2011, 10:22 AM   #33
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I bet a lot of people buy these for the purpose of reselling privately to noobs for triple what they payed.
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Old 02-06-2011, 10:56 AM   #34
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Anyone know if the Ebay seller "mijsixstringskatana" is legit, i'm thinking of buying a Jazzmaster from them, they have ALOT of highest ratings on Ebay. Would be great if someone could help me out over PM with this.

Mate katana is from japan its legit and they wont be fake

Japans all good its china you have to worry about.

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Old 02-13-2011, 12:57 AM   #35
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here's a fake 'American Telecaster for sale'. I asked the seller if it was fake (I know it is but just wanted to see the response). He/She replied that I better buy the guitar haha

http://www.ioffer.com/i/170902159

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Old 02-17-2011, 10:06 PM   #36
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Old 02-17-2011, 10:13 PM   #37
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sorry didnt mean to post that.. but what about this?? http://oioffer.com/detail.asp?id=246
its just a normal jackson?
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Old 02-17-2011, 10:45 PM   #38
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why are you even looking at those sites?

are you looking to be conned?
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Old 02-18-2011, 12:41 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by mmolteratx
A JEM will ONLY say JEM on the headstock. If it says RG, either the neck is a replacement or the entire thing is fake.

EDIT: As for guitar #2, it looks like a Les Paul Supreme copy. Some of those didn't come with pickguards depending on the finish options. The middle of the burst is fine, I've owned a genuine LP that was that dark. The pickup selector ring is missing though and it's a quilt top rather than the flame in the description.

The headstock inlay looks like an attempted copy of the Supreme inlay but the copyist failed miserably. The Supreme inlay has a picture of the Earth with a ribbon saying supreme. There are no legit Gibsons with a circular Custom Shop inlay on the front of the headstock.

The fretboard inlay is from a limited edition release from a few years ago, I believe it was called the Les Paul Tree of Life. That guitar had a natural finish and looked very different though.

EDIT2: Also, the binding on the headstock should be the same multi ply as the binding on the body and it shouldn't start halfway through the first fret. The bridge looks more squared than a real tune-o-matic as well.

EDIT3: The strap buttons are an incorrect shape.

EDIT4: On guitar one, that's an R9, not an R8 like the description. R8s only have plain tops.


Damn - Someone has a better eye than I do! Would you be willing to pitch in with the examinations? We could use someone with your eye for detail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tele118
here's a fake 'American Telecaster for sale'. I asked the seller if it was fake (I know it is but just wanted to see the response). He/She replied that I better buy the guitar haha

http://www.ioffer.com/i/170902159


Thanks for that - I'll write a look at this guy up in a bit, haven't done a Fender yet, so should be fun!

Quote:
Originally Posted by thrashmetalhed
sorry didnt mean to post that.. but what about this?? http://oioffer.com/detail.asp?id=246
its just a normal jackson?


Does it look like a low-end Jackson? Yes. A $105 Jackson? No. Plus never trust someone with just one stock picture of a new instrument that has no images of the guitar itself. Especially if they don't have the description dealers are supposed to have. Also, never buy from someone who offers western union payment, or, if it's supposed to be a store, has grammatical and punctual errors in their writing - A company selling through the internet can afford hiring a spellchecker.
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Old 02-23-2011, 09:37 AM   #40
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