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View Poll Results: Would you be willing to change your user title to 'Feminist' temporarily?
Yes 127 21.67%
No 459 78.33%
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Old 03-11-2011, 01:22 PM   #81
The Madcap
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Originally Posted by JustRooster
Truth. In so many ways.






Watch those links in order. Women in pornography don't feel degraded, they feel empowered. They are only told they SHOULD feel degraded. Forcing your opinion on someone and asking for civil rights should both be forthright motives in your cause if you want to be taken seriously.
I saw that before. She seems really intelligent, and apparently she's really big into Exestential Philosophy.

It's a shame that the whole interview was edited to basically glorify Tyra.
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Old 03-11-2011, 01:24 PM   #82
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If what people like you claim to want with feminism is what the movement was actually trying to achieve at levels that actually had influence, then I'm sure I'd be much less annoyed by it.
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Old 03-11-2011, 01:25 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Jack Off Jill
There are many feminist movements who feel that doing pornography and things of that nature is degrading to women so women shouldn't do it. If they do it, they don't help with the cause of feminism. This is a common cry amongst many feminists, especially more classical ones. However, I'm a firm believer that doing what you want regardless of what you're told to do, by society... sexist or feminist alike... is more empowering. These types of feminists don't understand that THEY'RE the ones degrading the women, because they're the ones judging them. Just as much as any man who views her as an object. They're treating her like she's brainless or helpless or whatever.



okay, I'm going to ask you to help me with something, because

A: you've clearly put much more into this than I have

B: you seem to be one of those people that can form opinions easily, which I am not

and C: because I like you.

http://bonerkilling.blogspot.com/

^this, dear Watson, is a radical feminist blog by someone who until recently, was my best friend, and I'm not sure what to make of it, I come back to it, again and again, and I can't see eye to eye with her, it bothers me endlessly

can you just like... read through some of this and give me some thoughts?
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Old 03-11-2011, 01:25 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by CoreysMonster
If what people like you claim to want with feminism is what the movement was actually trying to achieve at levels that actually had influence, then I'm sure I'd be much less annoyed by it.

Indeed.
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Old 03-11-2011, 01:26 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by The_Casinator
I think people should be treated the way they deserve to be treated, regardless of race, sex and age.


This.
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Old 03-11-2011, 01:28 PM   #86
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yeah I'm a feminist so I changed my user title. it was only a band who's name I wanted to remember anyway
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Old 03-11-2011, 01:28 PM   #87
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do you mind if I just...leave this here...


(but I do wish you good luck, girls)
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Old 03-11-2011, 01:29 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Greenie_777
I don't think anyone thinks it's witty or clever it's just funny.

Sexist, racist and natural disaster jokes are always funny.
Old jokes posted here almost everyday =/= funny.

Also, this is something I read about a year ago by Audre Lorde. An interesting criticism of not so much Feminism, but the feminist movement in her day (1960s):
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I agreed to take part in a New York University Institute for the Humanities conference a year ago, with the understanding that I would be commenting upon papers dealing with the role of difference within the lives of American women: difference of race, sexuality, class, and age. The absence of these considerations weakens any feminist discussion of the personal and the political.

It is a particular academic arrogance to assume any discussion of feminist theory without examining our many differences, and without a significant input from poor women, Black and Third World women, and lesbians. And yet, I stand here as a Black lesbian feminist, having been invited to comment within the only panel at this conference where the input of Black feminists and lesbians is represented. What this says about the vision of this conference is sad, in a country where racism, sexism, and homophobia are inseparable. To read this program is to assume that lesbian and Black women have nothing to say about existentialism, the erotic, women's culture and silence, developing feminist theory, or heterosexuality and power. And what does it mean in personal and political terms when even the two Black women who did present here were literally found at the last hour? What does it mean when the tools of a racist patriarchy are used to examine the fruits of that same patriarchy? It means that only the most narrow perimeters of change are possible and allowable.

The absence of any consideration of lesbian consciousness or the consciousness of Third World women leaves a serious gap within this conference and within the papers presented here. For example, in a paper on material relationships between women, I was conscious of an either/or model of nurturing which totally dismissed my knowledge as a Black lesbian. In this paper there was no examination of mutuality between women, no systems of shared support, no interdependence as exists between lesbians and women-identified women. Yet it is only in the patriarchal model of nurturance that women "who attempt to emancipate themselves pay perhaps too high a price for the results," as this paper states.

For women, the need and desire to nurture each other is not pathological but redemptive, and it is within that knowledge that our real power is rediscovered. It is this real connection which is so feared by a patriarchal world. Only within a patriarchal structure is maternity the only social power open to women.

Interdependency between women is the way to a freedom which allows the I to be, not in order to be used, but in order to be creative. This is a difference between the passive be and the active being.

Advocating the mere tolerance of difference between women is the grossest reformism. It is a total denial of the creative function of difference in our lives. Difference must be not merely tolerated, but seen as a fund of necessary polarities between which our creativity can spark like a dialectic. Only then does the necessity for interdependency become unthreatening. Only within that interdependency of different strengths, acknowledged and equal, can the power to seek new ways of being in the world generate, as well as the courage and sustenance to act where there are no charters.

Within the interdependence of mutual (nondominant) differences lies that security which enables us to descend into the chaos of knowledge and return with true visions of our future, along with the concomitant power to effect those changes which can bring that future into being. Difference is that raw and powerful connection from which our personal power is forged.

As women, we have been taught either to ignore our differences, or to view them as causes for separation and suspicion rather than as forces for change. Without community there is no liberation, only the most vulnerable and temporary armistice between an individual and her oppression. But community must not mean a shedding of our differences, nor the pathetic pretense that these differences do not exist.

Those of us who stand outside the circle of this society's definition of acceptable women; those of us who have been forged in the crucibles of difference -- those of us who are poor, who are lesbians, who are Black, who are older -- know that survival is not an academic skill. It is learning how to stand alone, unpopular and sometimes reviled, and how to make common cause with those others identified as outside the structures in order to define and seek a world in which we can all flourish. It is learning how to take our differences and make them strengths. For the master's tools will never dismantle the master's house. They may allow us temporarily to beat him at his own game, but they will never enable us to bring about genuine change. And this fact is only threatening to those women who still define the master's house as their only source of support.

Poor women and women of Color know there is a difference between the daily manifestations of marital slavery and prostitution because it is our daughters who line 42nd Street. If white American feminist theory need not deal with the differences between us, and the resulting difference in our oppressions, then how do you deal with the fact that the women who clean your houses and tend your children while you attend conferences on feminist theory are, for the most part, poor women and women of Color? What is the theory behind racist feminism?

In a world of possibility for us all, our personal visions help lay the groundwork for political action. The failure of academic feminists to recognize difference as a crucial strength is a failure to reach beyond the first patriarchal lesson. In our world, divide and conquer must become define and empower.

Why weren't other women of Color found to participate in this conference? Why were two phone calls to me considered a consultation? Am I the only possible source of names of Black feminists? And although the Black panelist's paper ends on an important and powerful connection of love between women, what about interracial cooperation between feminists who don't love each other?

In academic feminist circles, the answer to these questions is often, "We did not know who to ask." But that is the same evasion of responsibility, the same cop-out, that keeps Black women's art out of women's exhibitions, Black women's work out of most feminist publications except for the occasional "Special Third World Women's Issue," and Black women's texts off your reading lists. But as Adrienne Rich pointed out in a recent talk, white feminists have educated themselves about such an enormous amount over the past ten years, how come you haven't also educated yourselves about Black women and the differences between us -- white and Black -- when it is key to our survival as a movement?

Women of today are still being called upon to stretch across the gap of male ignorance and to educate men as to our existence and our needs. This is an old and primary tool of all oppressors to keep the oppressed occupied with the master's concerns. Now we hear that it is the task of women of Color to educate white women -- in the face of tremendous resistance -- as to our existence, our differences, our relative roles in our joint survival. This is a diversion of energies and a tragic repetition of racist patriarchal thought.

Simone de Beauvoir once said: "It is in the knowledge of the genuine conditions of our lives that we must draw our strength to live and our reasons for acting."

Racism and homophobia are real conditions of all our lives in this place and time. I urge each one of us here to reach down into that deep place of knowledge inside herself and touch that terror and loathing of any difference that lives there. See whose face it wears. Then the personal as the political can begin to illuminate all our choices.
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Old 03-11-2011, 01:29 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Carswell98
okay, I'm going to ask you to help me with something, because

A: you've clearly put much more into this than I have

B: you seem to be one of those people that can form opinions easily, which I am not

and C: because I like you.

http://bonerkilling.blogspot.com/

^this, dear Watson, is a radical feminist blog by someone who until recently, was my best friend, and I'm not sure what to make of it, I come back to it, again and again, and I can't see eye to eye with her, it bothers me endlessly

can you just like... read through some of this and give me some thoughts?



Oh wow. I just read her first couple articles. There are a few glaring fallacies, but I'm guessing you're looking more for a way to approach her and tell her you disagree, not refute her arguments, right?
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Old 03-11-2011, 01:29 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by CoreysMonster
If what people like you claim to want with feminism is what the movement was actually trying to achieve at levels that actually had influence, then I'm sure I'd be much less annoyed by it.

Look at it like a social phenomena, Ryan - people who get on top and have influence are generally extremely ambitious and pretty radical to be able to be heard and go forth. People who influence the image of feminism in the media are generally going to be kind of crazy because that's what gets attention, just like any movement; it's just unfortunate because the movement has a loaded name towards one direction and doesn't have issues as obvious as before. I think you're a feminist Ryan. You've just dealt with a lot of bullshit attached to the name that isn't true to the cause.
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Old 03-11-2011, 01:30 PM   #91
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Those are a lot of people who take on the 'feminist' name and use it for their own concern. I don't agree with a lot of the Lilith-based feminists, and while they can take on the name and it's all fine and dandy, that's not what the term means. Like I said in the OP, people will use whatever methods and arguments they want to to support the cause, and those methods shouldn't always be used to characterize the nature of the term in its purest form.

Doesn't really matter, though. They're still a form of feminism. Which is why I don't refer to myself as one. I prefer to be specific. Feminism in itself is about empowerment not just equality. What you do with it is up for interpretation. Like I mentioned before, it's the same thing as supporting black rights. And the way The Nation believes this should be achieved is different from the way that MLK thought. But no one is going to argue that Malcolm wasn't part of the movement because his ideas were drastically different.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carswell98
okay, I'm going to ask you to help me with something, because

A: you've clearly put much more into this than I have

B: you seem to be one of those people that can form opinions easily, which I am not

and C: because I like you.

http://bonerkilling.blogspot.com/

^this, dear Watson, is a radical feminist blog by someone who until recently, was my best friend, and I'm not sure what to make of it, I come back to it, again and again, and I can't see eye to eye with her, it bothers me endlessly

can you just like... read through some of this and give me some thoughts?

lol, I don't form opinions easily. I promise. Remind me to do this in a PM, okay? Cause I gotta take my friend to work.
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Originally Posted by vintage x metal
I love you =] I can't say I was very fond of you when we first started talking because you trolled the hell out of my threads, but after talking to you here I've grown very attached to you.

Yeah, write to my fanclub about it, honey.

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Old 03-11-2011, 01:31 PM   #92
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I feel like I should put in my two cents here:

It is not "I am a woman, respect me!"

It is "I am a person, respect me!"

/probablymakesnosense
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Old 03-11-2011, 01:33 PM   #93
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Holy shit I love Rosie O'Donnel.
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Originally Posted by vintage x metal
I love you =] I can't say I was very fond of you when we first started talking because you trolled the hell out of my threads, but after talking to you here I've grown very attached to you.

Yeah, write to my fanclub about it, honey.
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Old 03-11-2011, 01:34 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Dirge Humani
I feel like I should put in my two cents here:

It is not "I am a woman, respect me!"

It is "I am a person, respect me!"

/probablymakesnosense




Right. Although, I don't think the argument here is about what it SHOULD be, but what the movement ACTUALLY is right now. No one questions the widely accepted and proposed motives of the group, but by their historical actions they've exemplified otherwise.
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Old 03-11-2011, 01:35 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by JustRooster
Oh wow. I just read her first couple articles. There are a few glaring fallacies, but I'm guessing you're looking more for a way to approach her and tell her you disagree, not refute her arguments, right?



not really, I don't have the energy to attack her ideology, because there would be nothing I could say that would mean a thing to either of us, it's not about getting even or making her feel stupid, that's not how I operate.



what I'm looking for is a little perspective, and maybe a little peace of mind that I'm not an enormous **** for not thinking porn is the worst thing in the world, and that I'm not evil just for being a man.
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Old 03-11-2011, 01:37 PM   #96
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Thanks for the article Madcap, that's fantastic


I guess something that has always irked me with the connotation of the word 'feminist' is that we are fixated on gender issues. That's really not the case. I don't parade around talking about gender issues very much at all really, not unless it is relevant - I have a lot of things to talk about, a lot of interests to pursue, I love my guitar, I love climbing trees, etc. I am a feminist but my life doesn't revolve around the idea, it's just a part of me like everything else is.


Do you remember what it was like when we were children? If a girl played in the sandbox with a boy it wasn't a date, it wasn't some awesome thing that boys and girls had the same interests, the girl wasn't a lesbian because she liked doing what guys do, etc. As we become more accustomed to our society and its gender roles, with age and nurture, we suddenly take on these definitions and it's silly. I play guitar and all it means is that I like to play guitar, but sometimes it takes on this 'oh she plays guitar thats so hot most girls dont do that' kind of thing when really my choice of hobbies shouldn't mean a damn thing as far as genders go.
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Old 03-11-2011, 01:37 PM   #97
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This, my dear feminists

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Old 03-11-2011, 01:37 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Carswell98
not really, I don't have the energy to attack her ideology, because there would be nothing I could say that would mean a thing to either of us, it's not about getting even or making her feel stupid, that's not how I operate.



what I'm looking for is a little perspective, and maybe a little peace of mind that I'm not an enormous **** for not thinking porn is the worst thing in the world, and that I'm not evil just for being a man.

I haven't read too much of it, like the other guy I only skimmed so far. But I can tell you right now that I disagree with her. Her point would come across a little bit better if she was going out of her way to promote human rights rather than female rights. She's one of those anti-male feminists it seems. But I could be jumping to conclusions.
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I love you =] I can't say I was very fond of you when we first started talking because you trolled the hell out of my threads, but after talking to you here I've grown very attached to you.

Yeah, write to my fanclub about it, honey.
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Old 03-11-2011, 01:38 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Jack Off Jill

lol, I don't form opinions easily. I promise. Remind me to do this in a PM, okay? Cause I gotta take my friend to work.



will do, and I appreciate this.
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Old 03-11-2011, 01:39 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Jack Off Jill
Doesn't really matter, though. They're still a form of feminism. Which is why I don't refer to myself as one. I prefer to be specific. Feminism in itself is about empowerment not just equality. What you do with it is up for interpretation. Like I mentioned before, it's the same thing as supporting black rights. And the way The Nation believes this should be achieved is different from the way that MLK thought. But no one is going to argue that Malcolm wasn't part of the movement because his ideas were drastically different.

I see your point, and I understand where you're coming from, but I don't agree with you.
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