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Old 08-20-2011, 08:58 AM   #61
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This is bullshit. Jackal is saying that by saying birth is morally wrong, they are advocating the suicide of the species. Suicide as we traditionally understand it is suicide of the self, but if they say having babies is morally wrong since it's selfish, then logically, continuing the species is morally wrong because it's selfish. This would imply that life itself is morally wrong. So if they adhere to this philosophy, but don't want to die, then they too, are guilty of selfishly wanting to keep living rather than putting the good of the universe-without-our-species or whatever in front of that priority. Ergo, by not having immediately killing themselves, they're showing themselves to be hypocritical as well as moronic.
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Old 08-20-2011, 09:00 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Butt Rayge
Human life is a terrible thing. It doesn't mean I want to kill myself, and it doesn't mean I want to go hitler on everbody's arses.


Well you're just selfish then aren't you?

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Originally Posted by Butt Rayge
For the record, I don't agree with antinatalism. It's pretty clear to me that not wanting babies and wanting to kill yourself and every other person in the world are not the same thing. I dont understand how any rational person could possibly think so.


Dude anti-natalism doesn't mean "i don't think i will have babies because my career will suffer", It's the philosophical position that every one in the world should stop having babies which would lead to the extinction of the human race.

Why would you want the human race to go extinct? Because you believe it's a bad thing. Therefore, if you believe in anti-natalism (providing you're a human) you're a hypocrite, because you think the human race is a bad thing and yet you're still alive.
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Old 08-20-2011, 09:09 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by LordBishek
This is bullshit. Jackal is saying that by saying birth is morally wrong, they are advocating the suicide of the species. Suicide as we traditionally understand it is suicide of the self, but if they say having babies is morally wrong since it's selfish, then logically, continuing the species is morally wrong because it's selfish. This would imply that life itself is morally wrong. So if they adhere to this philosophy, but don't want to die, then they too, are guilty of selfishly wanting to keep living rather than putting the good of the universe-without-our-species or whatever in front of that priority. Ergo, by not having immediately killing themselves, they're showing themselves to be hypocritical as well as moronic.

That is exactly what I am saying. If you believe the planet is better off without humanity
and advocate a position to remove humanity from the planet and you're still here talking about it you don't believe in your beliefs. You;re a hypocrite.
I;m not calling people that choose not to have children hypocrites. I'm calling people that believe our species should go extinct hypocrites.
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Old 08-20-2011, 09:11 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Jackal58
That is exactly what I am saying. If you believe the planet is better off without humanity
and advocate a position to remove humanity from the planet and you're still here talking about it you don't believe in your beliefs. You;re a hypocrite.
I;m not calling people that choose not to have children hypocrites. I'm calling people that believe our species should go extinct hypocrites.


This thread has inspired me to read up because i really don't know much about extinctionists.

Apparently the voluntary human extinction movement does not advocate suicide, as they believe that by staying alive they can help to encourage people not to procreate which is of greater value.
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Old 08-20-2011, 09:12 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by spitonastranger
Well you're just selfish then aren't you?



Dude anti-natalism doesn't mean "i don't think i will have babies because my career will suffer", It's the philosophical position that every one in the world should stop having babies which would lead to the extinction of the human race.

Why would you want the human race to go extinct? Because you believe it's a bad thing. Therefore, if you believe in anti-natalism (providing you're a human) you're a hypocrite, because you think the human race is a bad thing and yet you're still alive.

I know what it means.

I'm not sure you understand. The idea is for the race to die out, not for everybody to kill each other and themselves. Hypothetically, I could go through life encouraging others not to procreate, and not have children myself without ever killing anyone, encouraging anyone to kill, or killing myself.
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Old 08-20-2011, 09:14 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by spitonastranger
This thread has inspired me to read up because i really don't know much about extinctionists.

Apparently the voluntary human extinction movement does not advocate suicide, as they believe that by staying alive they can help to encourage people not to procreate which is of greater value.


Oh that's just FANTASTIC. What a convenient loophole for them.

Something which nobody can prove is bullshit.

But if it smells like bullshit and looks like bullshit...

I mean come on, seriously? Certainly they can't be dumb enough to think they'll convince the virtual entirety of the human race to commit suicide. So if they accept this fact, they understand that they will do no good by staying alive. So they might as well kill themselves and lead by example.

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Originally Posted by Butt Rayge
Nope, lol.


Human life is a terrible thing. In becoming evolutionarily (is that a word?) perfect, we've hit an evolutionary dead end and we're ultimately destined to destroy both our own species and most of the other life on the planet. It doesn't mean I want to kill myself, and it doesn't mean I want to go hitler on everbody's arses.


I do not see how proposition A logically leads to proposition B.
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Old 08-20-2011, 09:17 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by LordBishek
Oh that's just FANTASTIC. What a convenient loophole for them.

Something which nobody can prove is bullshit.

But if it smells like bullshit and looks like bullshit...

I mean come on, seriously? Certainly they can't be dumb enough to think they'll convince the virtual entirety of the human race to commit suicide. So if they accept this fact, they understand that they will do no good by staying alive. So they might as well kill themselves and lead by example.

Herp.

Derp.

Not the point.
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Old 08-20-2011, 09:19 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Butt Rayge
I know what it means.

I'm not sure you understand. The idea is for the race to die out, not for everybody to kill each other and themselves. Hypothetically, I could go through life encouraging others not to procreate, and not have children myself without ever killing anyone, encouraging anyone to kill, or killing myself.

If an individual has come to such an extreme belief I have no problem with them taking the first step. It is hypocritical to propose the extinction of our species and not killing yourself. You can argue it any way you like to but all of your arguments contain a logical fallacy that run counter to the premise of the philosophy.
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Old 08-20-2011, 09:19 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Butt Rayge
Herp.

Derp.

Not the point.


Then what is the point? Apparently ecological impact is one of their objectives. If the destructive impact of an increase in humanity is what they seek to minimise, and knowing that if they all didn't exist, the overall benefit of them not existing is greater than any preaching they could do, then they're actually working away from their aims, not towards it.
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Old 08-20-2011, 09:24 AM   #70
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Old 08-20-2011, 09:24 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Jackal58
If an individual has come to such an extreme belief I have no problem with them taking the first step. It is hypocritical to propose the extinction of our species and not killing yourself. You can argue it any way you like to but all of your arguments contain a logical fallacy that run counter to the premise of the philosophy.


the premise of the philosophy isn't to kill others either which would be just as effective and extreme, so why don't they do that? does it make them hypocrites if they don't run out with machine guns and go on a murderous rampage? the idea is to stop people being born, not to murder others or kill yourself. life is a burden, and anybody that is born is too late, i.e. stop people being born.

i don't buy into the philosophy, but i certainly understand it.
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Old 08-20-2011, 09:28 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Butt Rayge
Human life is a terrible thing. In becoming evolutionarily (is that a word?) perfect, we've hit an evolutionary dead end and we're ultimately destined to destroy both our own species and most of the other life on the planet. It doesn't mean I want to kill myself, and it doesn't mean I want to go hitler on everbody's arses.

For the record, I don't agree with antinatalism. It's pretty clear to me that not wanting babies and wanting to kill yourself and every other person in the world are not the same thing. I dont understand how any rational person could possibly think so.

Why do you think humans are "evolutionarily perfect"?
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Old 08-20-2011, 09:30 AM   #73
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Boy, some people in the pit can really spew out some amount of bullshit.
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Old 08-20-2011, 09:49 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by laid-to-waste
the premise of the philosophy isn't to kill others either which would be just as effective and extreme, so why don't they do that? does it make them hypocrites if they don't run out with machine guns and go on a murderous rampage? the idea is to stop people being born, not to murder others or kill yourself. life is a burden, and anybody that is born is too late, i.e. stop people being born.

i don't buy into the philosophy, but i certainly understand it.

The premise of the philosophy is the extinction of the human race. At that point the methodology just becomes a nicety.
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Old 08-20-2011, 09:56 AM   #75
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Philosophy is a bunch of made up fake science nonsense anyway.


OT: Sounds a lot like giving up. Honestly, because life can sometimes be hard and painful, we shouldn't bring any more children into the world? Ok...sure...
Of course, this position completely ignores the fact that life can also be quite joyful, even under hard circumstances. It all depends on how you look at it. If things seem to be going bad for me, for instance, I have the following choices: 1) find joy in the good things around me OR 2) dwell on all the bad stuff. Personally, I'd choose #1 every time.
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Old 08-20-2011, 09:57 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Jackal58
The premise of the philosophy is the extinction of the human race. At that point the methodology just becomes a nicety.


no it's not.

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Antinatalism is a philosophical position that asserts a negative value judgment towards birth, standing in opposition to natalism


it asserts a negative value judgement. the actual actions of antinatalism are already presenting in parts of the world such as china with the 1978 one-child policy. it's not to wipe out the population, the concern of the philosophy is overpopulation, famine and maintaining a sustainable environment/economy.
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Old 08-20-2011, 10:01 AM   #77
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Oh in that case they should all get castrated.
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Old 08-20-2011, 10:07 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by laid-to-waste
the premise of the philosophy isn't to kill others either which would be just as effective and extreme, so why don't they do that? does it make them hypocrites if they don't run out with machine guns and go on a murderous rampage? the idea is to stop people being born, not to murder others or kill yourself. life is a burden, and anybody that is born is too late, i.e. stop people being born.

i don't buy into the philosophy, but i certainly understand it.


I understand the philosophy as well but it's as simple as this; if you want the human race to become extinct you're a hypocrite. It's a paradox.

Killing other people is the logical progression of the ideology these people espouse but not doing that is the same thing as a catholic not going to church.
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Old 08-20-2011, 10:07 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Jackal58
The premise of the philosophy is the extinction of the human race. At that point the methodology just becomes a nicety.


this.

This whole premise is just stupid. Most things about life are a struggle, get over it. They are hypocrites. They don't want life to exist anymore, but they don't want to die themselves. Yea, OK.

Person 1: "How dare you have children! That is selfish. Life sucks, and we should no longer exist."

Person 2: "Then why are you still alive."

Person 1: "um.... because I have to warn you."

Person 2: Yea, that makes sense."

And the part about how having children is children is selfish is ridiculous. Everything humans do is selfish, as we just discussed in that other thread yesterday. Everything.

But being selfish isn't always a bad, we've just come to associate the word with greediness, and other things like that.
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Old 08-20-2011, 10:09 AM   #80
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I think calling them hypocrites is pretty besides the point. Whether the people who suggest this idea do it or not doesn't change the idea itself.

If you want to argue against an idea you can't just say "well yeah you're not doing it!"
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