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Old 08-20-2011, 10:10 AM   #81
laid-to-waste
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no.

no.

antinatalism is not for extinction of the human race.

http://volcanoesmakemeexplode.wetpa...talist+Policies

EDIT: also, being alive does not make you a hypocritical anti-natalist. having a child does, though.
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Old 08-20-2011, 10:11 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by LordBishek
I do not see how proposition A logically leads to proposition B.

We became the apex predator on earth and now we destroy everything everywhere we go. Our methods of living are not sustainable.
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Originally Posted by MadClownDisease
Why do you think humans are "evolutionarily perfect"?

I don't. I shouldn't have said it. I meant that we've basically come as far as evolution will take us. Our environment carved and molded us into what we are today, and today we change our environment to suit our needs.

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If an individual has come to such an extreme belief I have no problem with them taking the first step. It is hypocritical to propose the extinction of our species and not killing yourself. You can argue it any way you like to but all of your arguments contain a logical fallacy that run counter to the premise of the philosophy.

Your arguments are illogical. There's nothing hypocritical about thinking the world would be better off if you didn't have a kid and choosing not to commit suicide.

I don't want kids, and I think that the world would definitely be better off without humans, but I don't want to kill myself and I never will.

I'd like to reassert my stance here and remind everybody that, no I am not an antinatalist, even if I do think they make some good points.
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Old 08-20-2011, 10:15 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Butt Rayge
but I don't want to kill myself and I never will.


Why not?
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Old 08-20-2011, 10:16 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by MadClownDisease
I think calling them hypocrites is pretty besides the point. Whether the people who suggest this idea do it or not doesn't change the idea itself.

If you want to argue against an idea you can't just say "well yeah you're not doing it!"


Of course it's not a legitimate attack on the idea but it's an interesting thought.

You know antinatalism isn't the same thing as extinctionism (a made up word as it exists in this context). It would be if the people who believed in the idea thought that the entire world should believe in it as well.

EDIT: so yeah that means ignore most of my previous arguments; a lot of the arguments in this thread are based on a misunderstanding of what anti-natalism means or they're just not used to the idea of people believing in something without thinking everyone else should as well.

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Old 08-20-2011, 10:19 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by LordBishek
Why not?


i would, personally, say living in misery is marginally less miserable than dying in it. got that off house.

what would i do without that man?
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Old 08-20-2011, 10:22 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by LordBishek
Why not?

Because despite the state of the world, the human race in general, and the best efforts of my peers, I enjoy being alive.
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Old 08-20-2011, 10:25 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by spitonastranger
Of course it's not a legitimate attack on the idea but it's an interesting thought.

You know antinatalism isn't the same thing as extinctionism (a made up word as it exists in this context). It would be if the people who believed in the idea thought that the entire world should believe in it as well.

Aye, I just think some people are taking it far too far.

Even were the theory to equate to "kill yourself", it's possible hold many many beliefs about what should be the case without being able to bring yourself to do so.
People can smoke whilst still believing it's bad for them, people can believe stealing is wrong whilst still being tempted now and again, people can believe cheating is wrong and still find themselves in a difficult situation, people can believe everyone should be equal and not give all their belongings away...

The world is full of human hypocrisy, it doesn't mean a thing for the theory itself.

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Originally Posted by Butt Rayge
I don't. I shouldn't have said it. I meant that we've basically come as far as evolution will take us. Our environment carved and molded us into what we are today, and today we change our environment to suit our needs.

I agree we shape our environment a lot, but their is still a lot that is beyond our control we can still adapt to, and even though we change our environment a lot, it's not always towards making it more sustainable or survivable for us.
Even if we could indeed control all limiting factors on life, we could still evolve in terms of socially selective breeding. People more socially desirable may procreate more and so we "evolve", simplistically speaking.

We do change our environment massively, but nothing ever stops evolving. We will constantly adapt and change.
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Old 08-20-2011, 10:45 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Butt Rayge
Because despite the state of the world, the human race in general, and the best efforts of my peers, I enjoy being alive.

Do you think the world would be better off without you? Why?
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Old 08-20-2011, 10:46 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by MadClownDisease

I agree we shape our environment a lot, but their is still a lot that is beyond our control we can still adapt to, and even though we change our environment a lot, it's not always towards making it more sustainable or survivable for us.
Even if we could indeed control all limiting factors on life, we could still evolve in terms of socially selective breeding. People more socially desirable may procreate more and so we "evolve", simplistically speaking.

We do change our environment massively, but nothing ever stops evolving. We will constantly adapt and change.


That sounds a lot like eugenics. I don't if that's what you meant it to sound like, but it did
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Old 08-20-2011, 10:47 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by spitonastranger
At this point in our evolution the decision is almost always motivated by selfish reasons but you're not implying it's inherently selfish are you?


How is it almost always motivated by selfish reasons?

Not having children is environmentally a good thing. It gives you more spare money which you could donate or use for other benevolent purposes and you are less likely to drain public resources or contribute to the burgeoning overpopulation we all suffer. It is selfish to have children. That doesn't mean people shouldn't. It was selfish of me to eat the last doughnut but I still did it.
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Old 08-20-2011, 11:01 AM   #91
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How is it almost always motivated by selfish reasons?

Not having children is environmentally a good thing. It gives you more spare money which you could donate or use for other benevolent purposes and you are less likely to drain public resources or contribute to the burgeoning overpopulation we all suffer. It is selfish to have children. That doesn't mean people shouldn't. It was selfish of me to eat the last doughnut but I still did it.


I just wanted to avoid making a definitive statement because there are exceptions to almost everything. Even to the statement i just made. Which again is why i qualified it with an 'almost'

I think you knew i was agreeing with you and you were just looking for an argument
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Old 08-20-2011, 11:06 AM   #92
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I know someone like this, doesn't have kids of his own but is like an adoptive father to an aboriginal family, they live on their reserve or whatever in another state but he helps support them.

I talked to him about it and he said he has no desire for kids of his own, not sure if he actually knows and lives by this sort of philosophy, I might have to ask him when I see him next.

Anyways, I'm comfortable in thinking that this sort of idea doesn't connect with me, I'm going to have babies, if they're boys than they'll have a football fused to their body...they're going to make me rich!
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Old 08-20-2011, 11:18 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by WCPhils
That sounds a lot like eugenics. I don't if that's what you meant it to sound like, but it did

Not at all. I mean people obviously fancy attractive people, and what is attractive is at least to some extent often socially dictated. The same way people used to find pale people attractive, tans are nowadays seen as attractive.

Obviously not everyone agrees on these things, but some attributes are generally found more socially desirable than others.

This isn't conscious selective breeding, it is simply people going for people they find attractive, which is often defined by the society.
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Old 08-20-2011, 11:40 AM   #94
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Or you could just choose to not have kids and not be a complete asshole. Though anyone who believes in things like this wouldn't be the kind of person who has that opportunity,.
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Old 08-20-2011, 11:50 AM   #95
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.....This concept sounds like my own personal beliefs >_>
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Old 08-20-2011, 06:40 PM   #96
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I don't think it necessary to end the human race, but one of the reasons I don't want kids is because it seems so easy to fuck them up no matter how hard you try not to. I don't want to be responsible for someone else's misery.
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Old 01-10-2013, 05:45 AM   #97
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(Not) sorry to bump this thread, but the topic is still very interesting to me and one that's resurfaced in my head lately.

I'm trying to think of a way to justify having kids. I can't get over the fact that choosing to create new life creates a ton of opportunities for suffering. Part of this stems from my feelings on many young couples around me, including my teenage ****ing brother, deciding to have kids right now. In my eyes it's simply cruel to bring a human being into existence in those circumstances -- and by those circumstances I mean young, uneducated, often moronic people with very bad ideas about raising children and life in general. It really bothers me that people have this sense of entitlement to children.

A few questions:

1. What do people hope to accomplish by having children that isn't purely selfish?
2. Is the suffering worth it and how?
3. What qualifies somebody to have kids?
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Old 01-10-2013, 06:25 AM   #98
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Whoah, I remember this thread. Vaguely.
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Originally Posted by LordBishek
Do you think the world would be better off without you? Why?

Whether I live or die is inconsequential. Of course, I will die and the world wont be any better or worse for it.
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Old 01-10-2013, 06:36 AM   #99
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This thread kind of makes me angry because everyone jumped and called this dumb without even thinking about it for a few minutes.

There are lots of points I agree with. If humans stopped making babies, maybe they'd start adopting more. Obviously I don't mean to say that I think the human race should go extinct, but calling procreation a selfish act is something I'm finding hard to argue against.

As for humans ceasing to exist, that'd be TERRIBLE....for humans, for everything else there will only be joy galore.
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Old 01-10-2013, 06:45 AM   #100
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This thread kind of makes me angry because everyone jumped and called this dumb without even thinking about it for a few minutes.

There are lots of points I agree with. If humans stopped making babies, maybe they'd start adopting more. Obviously I don't mean to say that I think the human race should go extinct, but calling procreation a selfish act is something I'm finding hard to argue against.

As for humans ceasing to exist, that'd be TERRIBLE....for humans, for everything else there will only be joy galore.

+1. I didn't understand why it was such a dumb idea in the first pages.
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