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Old 12-25-2011, 09:39 PM   #21
505088K
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I'm probably the worst composer ever but I really want to learn this stuff...

I know my last post sounded like I know how to write good expositions but after looking at my old attempts again I found out that they suck bigtime.
So don't mind my old question, I need to fix alot this stuff first.

This is really the best one I did, but it has some terrible counterpoint going on and I decided to stay in the dominant key for the entering of the third voice just because I thought it sounded better that way.




This is probably a great example of what not to do
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Old 12-25-2011, 09:49 PM   #22
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Was it intentional that your first answer is only 3 bars? And your countersubject 1 seems quite rhythmically stale. Like Xiaoxi said earlier, try to divide the rhythmic activity over your voices.

That said, I'm new to this to, so..
Got any audio of it?
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Old 12-25-2011, 10:11 PM   #23
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yeah the theme is really only 3 bars long the 4th bar is just like a transition.

And yeah I'm not that good with rhythm but I tried to make the first countersubject pretty much strict 8th notes and the second one more free to give them a different character.


And I've only got a midi file, I'll upload it to mediafire in a sec

Edit: http://www.mediafire.com/?349ajayfaawlue0

I have no idea why my counterpoint sounds so horrible in places >_>
It's frustrating

Last edited by 505088K : 12-25-2011 at 10:15 PM.
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Old 12-25-2011, 10:13 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keth
Was it intentional that your first answer is only 3 bars?


This is no problem. Plenty of fugues do similar things.

I think you have a great theme which creates a lot of possibilities. Also, the subtraction of the 4th bar in the answer (or the addition of a 4th bar for the opening, depending on how you look at it) is quite a sophisticated idea which I think could work very well here. Staying in the dominant is also cool, there's nothing wrong with that and plenty of fugues do that.

Now onto what I don't like.

Third bar, the Db should be a C#, likewise in bar 7 the Ab should be G#.

There are various flaws from a point of view of counterpoint, some of these you may want to ignore because they don't apply to the style you are trying to write in.

One thing that I'm sure you'll want to change, however, relates to independence of voices. Unisons, some parallel intervals and too many octave doublings in chords reduce the contrapuntal effect of the fugue.

Bar 7 is a little strange. The G/Ab (G#!) dissonance resolves onto a unison A natural (!) which then carries on in parallel unison (!!) to the B natural. Unisons are banned, even in passing, in species counterpoint except for endings and beginnings because they create a moment when there is only one voice. By moving in parallel unisons, you are creating two sonorities in a row where the two voices are essentially the same. This is a really counterproductive thing to do in the opening of a fugue!

You may want to study some species counterpoint, especially regarding the treatment of dissonance.
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Old 12-25-2011, 10:36 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by National_Anthem
This is no problem. Plenty of fugues do similar things.

I think you have a great theme which creates a lot of possibilities. Also, the subtraction of the 4th bar in the answer (or the addition of a 4th bar for the opening, depending on how you look at it) is quite a sophisticated idea which I think could work very well here. Staying in the dominant is also cool, there's nothing wrong with that and plenty of fugues do that.


Cool thank you^^

Quote:
Third bar, the Db should be a C#, likewise in bar 7 the Ab should be G#.


Yeah I know that.
I wrote this in guitar pro and the flat/sharp system seems to be pretty messed up there.

Quote:
There are various flaws from a point of view of counterpoint, some of these you may want to ignore because they don't apply to the style you are trying to write in.


Yep... This is my main problem, I often have to break my lines in order to make my counterpoint work. This is something you see in the first countersubject very much,
I often had to do small awkward jumps which really kill the effect of fluid 8th note runs that was intended.

Quote:
One thing that I'm sure you'll want to change, however, relates to independence of voices. Unisons, some parallel intervals and too many octave doublings in chords reduce the contrapuntal effect of the fugue.


Yeah Unisons where a big issue for me.
I didn't know they where banned though, but It makes sense when I think about it

Quote:
You may want to study some species counterpoint, especially regarding the treatment of dissonance.


I only watched a series of youtube videos on that stuff
I definitely have to get myself a book...
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Old 12-25-2011, 11:59 PM   #26
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Stickied, I'll run through this and attempt something when I have time. Thanks for the guide!
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Old 12-26-2011, 08:29 AM   #27
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I think what Xiaoxi wrote would sound great in Cm.
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Old 12-26-2011, 03:52 PM   #28
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I have attempted one!

The sounds:
http://soundcloud.com/nicholas-nico...gue-in-eb-major

(there's a lot of silence at the end because I forgot to get rid of the extra measures... oh well )

The sheet:
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Old 12-27-2011, 10:20 PM   #29
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hey guys sorry about the inactivity...

I gots an iPad 2 (for free, I ain't rich!!) and I've been messing with it for 2 days...

I'll get to all of this soon.
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Old 12-28-2011, 01:34 PM   #30
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I saw that iPad 2 thing on Facebook, but I generally assume those things are scams.
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Old 12-30-2011, 08:33 PM   #31
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Hang tight, nigs! I'MMA COMMIN

Also, I started a new fugue because the subject I'm using has a lot of technical issues for things later on.
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Old 12-31-2011, 12:35 AM   #32
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I haven't done anything with the one I started because I've been away for the last week. I'll try to get to it sometime this week though.
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Old 01-03-2012, 05:45 AM   #33
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bump for interest
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Old 01-03-2012, 05:11 PM   #34
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Alright bitches, I've arrived. This thread can begin.



http://soundcloud.com/zach-bales1/fuga

My first EVER tonal composition. I don't have any any idea whether this is any good or not. I know there's a fair few harmonic cockups, but I'm a baus, so whatever. I also abandoned the countersubject halfway through stating it, but again: baus.
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Old 01-04-2012, 07:14 PM   #35
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505088K:

Good try with your exposition. What I'd really like for you (and everyone) to think about is control and consistency, which is what fugues are all about both philosophically and technically. It's a discipline that could have a huge impact on how you write and how refined it can be.

You said you want to stay in the dominant key for the bass, which is fine in real practice, but I think what people needs to learn first is how to control harmony. That is to say, even though you may like it to stay in the dominant, you should have the ability to convincingly modulate back to tonic if required to do so. So with that in mind, I really urge that you try to modulate back for the bass.

Your answer (top voice) deviates in m.8 from the established subject, which weakens the integrity of your idea. It's also not a tonal answer, which is what this requires (the E in m.5 should be a D). Again, consistency is the focus here, so we should try to stay true to the subject as much as possible.

Counterpoint wise, there are a lot of issues. Remember, the approach to counterpoint is that every is based in 3rds and 6ths. Any other intervals can occur but they must be approached AND resolved by 3rds/6ths. You should all internalize this very important concept in order to move on. If you look at my examples, or any examples from Bach, you'll see that this is almost always true. Just spend a few minutes to analyze the logical patterns that occur intervallically between the voices.

I'll give you some explicit examples in errors:
-m.5 3rd beat: you have a D against an E, a 7th, but it wasn't approached by a 3rd/6th. You'd have to have an F or C as the last 8th note in the middle voice against the A to approach the 7th.
-m.6: you start off with a 6th, which is good, but then the middle and top both hit an A, and doesn't get resolved--you have an F and B. The F should be a G for triadic resolution.
-m.8: Like m.3, the Ab is meant to be a G#. With that in mind, you have a G natural in middle against G# in the top, which is very conflicting. Even if that was meant to be an Ab, you have an A natural in the middle. You also have parallel octaves: A -> B.

So think about those errors and how to solve them. But don't just try to randomly target 6ths and 3rds. The overall picture should make sense melodically and harmonically.

Here are my suggestions (which are pretty weak too, but I'm hazy right now). The tail of your subject allows for immediate modulation during the answer back to tonic:

http://soundcloud.com/xwanhosting/5050-fugue

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Last edited by Xiaoxi : 02-01-2012 at 05:12 AM.
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Old 01-04-2012, 08:59 PM   #36
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wow thank you I actually really like what you made out of that!

And yeah I've also been working on my counterpoint and understand the concept of double counterpoint alot better now. I fixed most of the problems I found but I didn't bother to post the updated version.

It worked alot better in terms of harmony but I often have trouble making the second line interesting in terms of melody if I can only use 3rds and 6ths :/

And I thought it was ok to vary the subject in fugues just not in canons? But yeah you're right it certainly isn't a good idea to do especially in the beginning.


Gonna go do some analyzing now...
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Old 01-05-2012, 08:12 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 505088K
And I thought it was ok to vary the subject in fugues just not in canons? But yeah you're right it certainly isn't a good idea to do especially in the beginning.


Gonna go do some analyzing now...


It is, providing it's done in the right way. There's two types of answer: real and tonal. Real answers are a direct transposition of the subject, where all of the intervals are kept the same. Tonal answers will have some of the intervals altered to strengthen the Tonic/Dominant relationship between subject and answer. For instance, rising fifths in subjects will often be changed to a rising fourth, and vice versa, as Xiaoxi did in his revision of you fugue.
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Old 01-06-2012, 01:23 PM   #38
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Did the first episode and middle entry now:

midi



Not sure if I like it yet... I hate the midi piano.
Didn't change the exposition at all.

When the bass enters in the middle entry, I had the middle voice play some free-ish counterpoint exept for the last measure instead of the second countersubject.
Is that allowed?

And yeah I started using finale now, no idea what's up with the font though.
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Old 01-08-2012, 01:47 PM   #39
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This is my first attempt. I haven't really done much, but I wanted to see if I was just doing totally the wrong thing before I went any further. I've never done a fugue before, and any classical composition I've done has been shocking, so any feedback or insults are appreciated!
MIDI
Click for full size:

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Old 01-08-2012, 02:43 PM   #40
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I noticed how Xiaoxi's first couple of bars sound very similar to the real answer of Little Fugue in Gm.

Yes, this was my moment to show some intelligence.
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