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Old 01-23-2012, 11:05 AM   #61
505088K
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You're way to good man!

Can't wait to see how your fugue turned out because I'm once again totaly amazed about what you made out of mine

Last edited by 505088K : 01-23-2012 at 03:23 PM.
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Old 01-23-2012, 06:44 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by 505088K
You're way to good man!

Can't wait to see how your fugue turned out because I'm once again totaly amazed about what you made out of mine

Thanks man. It took a lot of years to get to where I am now. But you have a head start!

I'll have my stuff ready to post sometimes tomorrow.
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Old 01-24-2012, 03:42 AM   #63
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Life Is Brutal, I can't review it right now, but looking forward to what you have so far. But please have it in Sibelius and get a decent screenshot. Don't worry if it's any good or not. I don't have Guitar Pro and it's too time consuming looking at GP rendered PDF's.

And for everyone, please RENDER the audio and put it on SoundCloud. Don't just upload Midi. Midi is not audio, it is data. When you upload a midi file for someone else to play, that file is subjected to a computer's unique interpretations based on its own parameters and banks, sometimes not playing at all.
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Old 01-24-2012, 02:00 PM   #64
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Holy crap, I had no idea you could import MIDI directly into Sibelius! That was easy!

The only instrument it lets me export the audio with is a harpsichord like piano.

I dislike how the prominent treble line goes unnoticed towards the end with this audio, it worked well with general MIDI settings.

Anyway, heres the soundcloud, The voices bleed into each other around half way through, because I got carried away and began expanding too quickly. But, because each voice follows the original, they all ascend in unison so they really only start intersecting during the last 4-5 bars. I'll probably rewrite the last half of it, or start a new one, but this was good practice.

http://soundcloud.com/lifeisbrutal/fugue-in-db-minor

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Old 01-24-2012, 03:22 PM   #65
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^^
Your second voice comes in as a tritone, was jarring, thought it was a midi error at first, but it's F# against C.
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Old 01-24-2012, 05:07 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xxdarrenxx
^^
Your second voice comes in as a tritone, was jarring, thought it was a midi error at first, but it's F# against C.


Yeah, that was the point.

It adds some resolve to the start of the 5th bar. I think I might have a problem for liking too much dissonance/tension in pieces. I attribute the dissonant instances in this piece to an overuse of phrases involving half steps, such as Eb-E-Eb.

I believe that there's only one other really jarring harmony, and that's at 37 seconds/bar 12 beat 4, and that's a minor 2nd harmony that I really couldn't avoid without pressing the integrity of my original idea. There's one other at bar 15, beat 4, but its harder to detect and is resolved with the next 8th note.

Outside of that, there are some "Outside" harmonies, but nothing as extreme as above. And for a first semi-functioning example, I'm surprised I didn't have A LOT more dissonance.

I'm done posting for awhile, I feel as though I've congested this thread enough with my self examination/defense.

FUGUEDIT: Theres a new one on my Soundcloud, but its more me dinking around with stuff.
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Old 01-25-2012, 02:29 AM   #67
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Alright, here's my complete fugue!

I wanted to give a detailed analysis in the hopes that you guys can extract my thought process and how you can apply it to your own processes. Even though there are a lot of specific details in here, it's not as important as understanding the overarching concept of what fugues are really about.

A couple of things to define first so that we're on the same page (not necessarily "official" terms):
-Exposition: the introduction of a fugue in which all voices address the subject in a methodical order
-Link: a short passage connecting one Middle Entry (see below) to another, like a bridge
-Episode: a passage that develop established ideas in fragments, often in a sequence. Different from a link because it's extensive.
-Middle Entry: a complete iteration of the subject, sometimes multiple iterations, in the body of the fugue
-Augmentation/Diminution: doubling/halving the rhythmic value of the subject. ie. Quarter note becomes half note through augmentation.
-SATB: Soprano (highest), Alto (2nd highest), Tenor, Bass…labels for the 4 voices

So as you see, there are a lot of labels on my analysis. But don't get bogged down in that and don't make it part of your thinking. This is more to make referencing easier. I had a hard time putting down a consistent label for things because my goal was to blur the line between things. I'll try to keep the verbal explanations as brief as possible:

The most important thing to realize through looking at the labels and brackets is that, at almost any given time, there is a tangible idea derived from the source material in the exposition. Whether it'd be the rhythmic feel/texture, fragments or whole of the subject or countersubject, or a continuation of sequential momentum, there is always a point which acts as the basis for continuation.

The beauty of fugues is that it demonstrates how a simple idea, even one as dull as this, can be used in various ways until it becomes something significant and compelling to hear how it's going to be used next. You'll notice that after the exposition, the subject is often not in its "true" tonic position, i.e. it's not necessarily starting on the 5th of the tonality of the moment. Also, the harmonies that surrounds the subject changes throughout the fugue, as well as the counterpoint material. The countersubject is basically abandoned as the fugue progresses because I wanted to show how far the subject can go from its home in the exposition. (although remnants of the countersubject sometimes shows up for familiarity).

I had a hard time labeling whether something should be a middle entry or an episode because the context of the subject is constantly evolving. I'm going by the definition that a middle entry is any complete iteration of the subject, but so many of these middle entries are also episodic in that they are very transitional in nature. I like this kind of fugue the best because the sections sounds more interwoven and things just transition smoothly in and out without attracting too much attention to the seams.

Some technical things to clarify: There is an "exposition 2" because I decided to introduce a new subject (subject 2) at that point which accompanies the original subject, making this a double fugue. In the exposition, subject 2 is connected to subject 1 but it's uneven (not a complete 4/4 setting), creating rhythmic displacement so we can take a break from the constant 4/4 head-on flow, which can become boring and stagnant. Notice that sometimes another iteration of the subject begins before the first one is finished, known as a stretto, or chaining together the subjects. And just like any other music, there are high points and low points, because even though this is a very problem-solving and technical kind of writing, it's still music and should have musical character. Anyways, here it is:

http://soundcloud.com/xiaoxiwan/fugue-in-f-minor

Clean Score PDF



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Old 01-25-2012, 03:14 AM   #68
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That was great, man.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiaoxi


So when are you gonna start yours?



Figured it'd be better to answer here.

To be honest, I don't even have a clue on how to go about a fugue. I get the basic gist of it, but as far as composing anything, and making it as fluid and well done as that, I just couldn't do it.

I'm proud enough of a simple counter point line I wrote on Guitar Pro, and it's just two voices and probably would be laughed at in learned music circles.

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Old 01-25-2012, 03:22 AM   #69
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Thanks

And that simple 2 part counterpoint is all you need to get started

And it's not really about creating a great piece in here...it's just really to get a feel for a kind of approach to writing that most people have never considered.
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Old 01-25-2012, 03:33 AM   #70
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Well if you wouldn't mind, I'll PM you sometime this weekend and if you could walk me through certain ins and outs on writing, that'd be great.
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Old 01-25-2012, 11:48 AM   #71
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I feel like a derp because I've been thinking of structure in a far too rigid concept.
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Old 01-25-2012, 12:13 PM   #72
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you know, xiaoxi, your fugue is great music to hang myself to
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Old 01-25-2012, 12:43 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Hail
you know, xiaoxi, your fugue is great music to hang myself to


I just realized that everything I had written prior is a just cluster **** of a canon, so I'm back to the drawing board.

BUT, I can't hang myself yet, because Xiaoxi just gave me what I needed to see.
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Old 01-25-2012, 01:10 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hail
you know, xiaoxi, your fugue is great music to hang myself to




It's kind of interessting really, when you first read about fugues you might imagine a fast paced piece in a major key with 3 voices chasing and playing with each other like kids, exploring many different environments and getting closer to each other at the end.
(at least I did)

But for some reason, most of the really big and famous fugues are very much like Xiaoxi's:
Slow, in a minor key, rather long with many different counterpoint ideas, almost depressing but incredibly beautiful and detailed.
It's not so much the voices chasing each other down anymore, it's more about building up to a huge architectual piece that's being held together by a haunting theme that follows the listener, popping up in all kinds of places and variations.

Sometimes when I listen to something like the last Kontrapunkt of Kunst der Fuga I feel like I'm the one being chased, instead of being someone watching the chase.
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Old 01-25-2012, 09:17 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hail
you know, xiaoxi, your fugue is great music to hang myself to

lol I'm honored.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Life Is Brutal
I just realized that everything I had written prior is a just cluster **** of a canon, so I'm back to the drawing board.

Try 3 voices instead of 4. It's all the same technique anyway. Also make sure the accidentals are correct, or it gets really confusing!
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Old 01-25-2012, 09:22 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by 505088K


It's kind of interessting really, when you first read about fugues you might imagine a fast paced piece in a major key with 3 voices chasing and playing with each other like kids, exploring many different environments and getting closer to each other at the end.
(at least I did)

But for some reason, most of the really big and famous fugues are very much like Xiaoxi's:
Slow, in a minor key, rather long with many different counterpoint ideas, almost depressing but incredibly beautiful and detailed.
It's not so much the voices chasing each other down anymore, it's more about building up to a huge architectual piece that's being held together by a haunting theme that follows the listener, popping up in all kinds of places and variations.

Sometimes when I listen to something like the last Kontrapunkt of Kunst der Fuga I feel like I'm the one being chased, instead of being someone watching the chase.
Fugues have all kinds of characters and qualities, as well as approaches and textures. The one I wrote is just happened to be what I like. But it's a very flexible technique and I don't want people to get the idea that it has to sound dark or slow or anything like that to be substantive.

One of my all time favorites, in fact, is this C# major, which is very bright and charming:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...-0PRovMU8#t=66s

Or sweet and tender:


Or powerful and bold:


Or quirky:


But if you want dark and introspective, there are plenty of those too:
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Old 01-25-2012, 09:41 PM   #77
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Xiaoxi, before I start this, fancy taking a look at a bit of my canon? I wouldn't mind using the start of my canon for the first subject.
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Old 01-25-2012, 09:43 PM   #78
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Sure post it
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Old 01-25-2012, 10:15 PM   #79
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Old 01-25-2012, 10:43 PM   #80
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I think I'm going to make myself write at least 12 bars of something a day. Hopefully the writing process will become easier.

Xiaoxi, I may have gotten a grip on this. A little bit, anyway.

Would you mind taking a look at Fugue in C Minor?

http://soundcloud.com/lifeisbrutal

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hpho... 7458325_n.jpg
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