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Old 10-08-2012, 04:47 AM   #3081
TSmitty6
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This is a shitty, fallacious thing, but I want to see how you guys would reply to someone with this reasoning:

What if you believe that if God is all knowing and created everything as claimed, did he not create people's skepticism or foresee that? Did he not create remote places that no one would ever hear of him in their lifetime or are exposed to another religion? What if people literally, never heard of Christianity?

Or do people have some level of freewill that would negate or is supposed to overcome all that?

My roommate said people have the opportunity to repent these types of things like skepticism and remoteness during Revelation. As much as I respect her as a person, this Revelation thing seemed to come out of left field for her. How does free will come into play here?


Can someone clear this up for me? Never went over free will much in my classes, so I'm not very well versed in that area. Mostly I've taken normative ethics (Mill, Kant, Aristotle, Rawls), business ethics, medical ethics, etc.
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Old 10-08-2012, 04:58 AM   #3082
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Originally Posted by TSmitty6
This is a shitty, fallacious thing, but I want to see how you guys would reply to someone with this reasoning:

What if you believe that if God is all knowing and created everything as claimed, did he not create people's skepticism or foresee that? Did he not create remote places that no one would ever hear of him in their lifetime or are exposed to another religion? What if people literally, never heard of Christianity?

Or do people have some level of freewill that would negate or is supposed to overcome all that?

My roommate said people have the opportunity to repent these types of things like skepticism and remoteness during Revelation. As much as I respect her as a person, this Revelation thing seemed to come out of left field for her. How does free will come into play here?


Can someone clear this up for me? Never went over free will much in my classes, so I'm not very well versed in that area. Mostly I've taken normative ethics (Mill, Kant, Aristotle, Rawls), business ethics, medical ethics, etc.

It's pretty simple really, if a God can 'forsee' something, that is, if God can know or see what will happen in the future, then 'free will' cannot exist because in order for God to know what happenes in the future, then the future must be 'predetermined'.
If the future is 'predetermined', then all of our choices that bring about that particular future must also be 'predetermined', therefore we wouldn't actualy have any choice over any of our decisions so we cannot be truly said to have 'free will'.
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Old 10-08-2012, 05:11 AM   #3083
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Originally Posted by SlackerBabbath
It's pretty simple really, if a God can 'forsee' something, that is, if God can know what will happen in the future, then 'free will' cannot exist because in order for God to know what happenes in the future, then the future must be 'predetermined'.
If the future is 'predetermined', then all of our choices that bring about that particular future must also be 'predetermined', therefore we wouldn't actualy have any choice over our decisions so we cannot be truly said to have 'free will'.

Which then brings up the question of: Why does sin, and the punishment for sins, exist if we never had the ability to choose not to sin?

Of all the logical fallacies in the bible, I think that might be one of the most disturbing.
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Old 10-08-2012, 05:37 AM   #3084
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Originally Posted by W4RP1G
Which then brings up the question of: Why does sin, and the punishment for sins, exist if we never had the ability to choose not to sin?

Of all the logical fallacies in the bible, I think that might be one of the most disturbing.


I wouldn't exactly call that particular point a fallacy. While the Bible states that we have free will to make our own choices, it doesn't say that God cannot punish us for making the choice that he didn't want us to make.

The same can be said for our own laws in society. We can effectivley 'choose' to break the law, doesn't stop the law from punishing us for it though.

The whole point of free will in the Bible is to say that you have the choice to be good or evil, but choosing wrongly may result in your own downfall. Another way of putting it is "you are free to make the wrong descision".

The reason it's in the Bible is to attempt to explain why God created people who make obviously wrong decisions. It's basicaly saying that God could have created a group of automatons that were programmed to worship him, but what would be the point in that? What value would 'worship' have if it isn't given freely? So God gave us the freedom to make the choice of whether to worship him or not, and in the Bible, not worshipping him is considered as an obviously wrong descision to make, so, according to the Bible, we have the free will to make wrong descisions so that our worshipping of God has value, which is why there are people that exist that make obviously wrong descisions.
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Old 10-08-2012, 07:59 AM   #3085
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Originally Posted by SlackerBabbath
I wouldn't exactly call that particular point a fallacy. While the Bible states that we have free will to make our own choices, it doesn't say that God cannot punish us for making the choice that he didn't want us to make.


But if God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent then God will know what choices we make before we make them. Thus God punishes us for choices he knows we will make before he even creates us.
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Old 10-08-2012, 08:10 AM   #3086
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But if God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent then God will know what choices we make before we make them. Thus God punishes us for choices he knows we will make before he even creates us.


God's a ****. I don't see the logical fallacy.
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Old 10-08-2012, 09:11 AM   #3087
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Originally Posted by Sleepy__Head
But if God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent then God will know what choices we make before we make them. Thus God punishes us for choices he knows we will make before he even creates us.

Isn't that like the definition of Calvinism? Why some people are preordained to be saved and the rest damned?
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Old 10-08-2012, 09:48 AM   #3088
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Originally Posted by willT08
God's a ****. I don't see the logical fallacy.


It's not so much a logical fallacy as a question of which one you want to give up: Omniscience, or free will.

If things are determined (i.e. if there's no free will) then it's possible to know beforehand what choices peopole will make.
OTOH if things aren't determined (i.e. if there's free will) then it's not possible to know beforehand what choices peopole will make.

Thus if God knows all (is omniscient), then there is no free will. Either that or we have free will and God isn't omniscient.
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Old 10-08-2012, 09:49 AM   #3089
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Originally Posted by eGraham
Isn't that like the definition of Calvinism? Why some people are preordained to be saved and the rest damned?


It's not a question of who's saved and who's damned, but a question of whether or not God can know our choices without that also meaning those choices are pre-determined.
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Old 10-08-2012, 10:06 AM   #3090
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Originally Posted by Sleepy__Head
It's not so much a logical fallacy as a question of which one you want to give up: Omniscience, or free will.

If things are determined (i.e. if there's no free will) then it's possible to know beforehand what choices peopole will make.
OTOH if things aren't determined (i.e. if there's free will) then it's not possible to know beforehand what choices peopole will make.

Thus if God knows all (is omniscient), then there is no free will. Either that or we have free will and God isn't omniscient.


Okay, cool. You're right.
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Old 10-08-2012, 10:49 AM   #3091
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Regarding the "Abrahamic" God.... If this being creates human beings knowing full well that millions or billions will fail their moral tests during their lifetimes and be condemned to eternal punishment...Then he's a monster.
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Old 10-08-2012, 01:56 PM   #3092
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Originally Posted by SlackerBabbath
I wouldn't exactly call that particular point a fallacy. While the Bible states that we have free will to make our own choices, it doesn't say that God cannot punish us for making the choice that he didn't want us to make.

I was referring to the belief that we are all following "God's plan", which would mean that we have no free will, thus no ability to sin on our own. Many Christians believe that we are all following this "plan", so it makes no sense to believe in that AND being punished for our sins.

But I don't know, does the bible state that we do have free will, or does it state that we are all following a set path, or "plan"? Or does it say both?
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Old 10-08-2012, 01:58 PM   #3093
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I was referring to the belief that we are all following "God's plan", which would mean that we have no free will, thus no ability to sin on our own. Many Christians believe that we are all following this "plan", so it makes no sense to believe in that AND being punished for our sins.

But I don't know, does the bible state that we do have free will, or does it state that we are all following a set path, or "plan"? Or does it say both?


I have a Christian friend who believes we have free will and that God is omniscient. Apparently it making no sense acts as no deterrent to him.
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Old 10-08-2012, 01:58 PM   #3094
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Originally Posted by Bikewer
Regarding the "Abrahamic" God.... If this being creates human beings knowing full well that millions or billions will fail their moral tests during their lifetimes and be condemned to eternal punishment...Then he's a monster.

It's like if I locked my dog in my bedroom for 14 hours and then punished her for soiling the carpet. It's downright cruel, insensitive, and ignorant(if I really expected a dog to hold it's bladder for so long).
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Old 10-08-2012, 01:59 PM   #3095
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Apparently it making no sense acts as no deterrent to him.

Why do you think that is?
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Old 10-08-2012, 02:09 PM   #3096
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Why do you think that is?


Because once you accept the idea of an all-mighty and personal God, you no longer need to make sense to justify it. You can just add in whatever extensions you want.
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Old 10-08-2012, 02:19 PM   #3097
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Originally Posted by willT08
Because once you accept the idea of an all-mighty and personal God, you no longer need to make sense to justify it. You can just add in whatever extensions you want.

Yeah I guess so. I used to be like that 10 years ago. Although, I think a large part of that came from the brainwashing I'd experienced for my entire life. When you are told since childhood that God is perfect and anything that doesn't make sense is just beyond our comprehension, and on top of that told that if you question God you'll go to Hell, it becomes very easy to turn a blind eye.
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Old 10-08-2012, 02:33 PM   #3098
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Originally Posted by willT08
I have a Christian friend who believes we have free will and that God is omniscient. Apparently it making no sense acts as no deterrent to him.

I remember seeing a very interesting argument defending the coexistence of omniscience and free will, basically stating that it was a false dichotomy because knowing isn't "causing" or something like that.

I think it was Crunch? Was that it?
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Old 10-08-2012, 02:39 PM   #3099
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Originally Posted by kalnoky7
I remember seeing a very interesting argument defending the coexistence of omniscience and free will, basically stating that it was a false dichotomy because knowing isn't "causing" or something like that.

I think it was Crunch? Was that it?

you're on the top of a cliff overlooking the corner of a major highway. You can see both paths because of this, but whichever side of the corner a given driver is on precludes him from seeing the other side. You see two drivers, each approaching from a different side of the corner on this highway. They reach the corner at the same time and crash into each other, explodifying. You knew it would happen, but you didn't cause it. In fact you know everything that happens at that intersection before it happens, but you didn't cause any of it.

The problem is that God is also omnipotent, so anything that is caused was caused by god when you look back at the "beginning" of his universe. Everything that ever would happen could only happen if god willed it, because he would have done something else, otherwise.

Then you get leibniz, but candide counters that
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Old 10-08-2012, 02:42 PM   #3100
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Looks like Crunk's got you. So yeah, his omnipotence is what makes squaring the circle impossible.
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