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Old 11-18-2012, 03:53 PM   #3481
beadhangingOne
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I think given what we currently know about the universe, it is highly unlikely that it was created by a 'god'.

Basically, the opinion that there is no god is a better and more sound opinion than the opinion that there is a god. (All other things being equal)
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Old 11-18-2012, 04:39 PM   #3482
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Originally Posted by beadhangingOne
I think given what we currently know about the universe, it is highly unlikely that it was created by a 'god'.

Basically, the opinion that there is no god is a better and more sound opinion than the opinion that there is a god. (All other things being equal)

yes, but recognising that neither option is a reasonable absolute conclusion is the chief decision, given how it's never been about opinions regarding His existence; it's always been about belief.

if you're an atheist, you believe there's no god. simple
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Old 11-18-2012, 04:57 PM   #3483
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Originally Posted by W4RP1G
.God is a deity and religion is a belief system based around a deity. I'm surprised you needed me to clarify that, I don't know what else I could be talking about.


if we trust wikipedia's definition, a deity is a natural or preternatural being who possesses superhuman powers or qualities and is thought of as divine.

if you look around you'll find that most things possess superhuman powers or qualities. the sun, celestial bodies, birds, trees, water molecules...are all capable of acting in ways that you cannot. to say that not one of these existences can or should be thought of as divine strikes me as supremely irrational, W4RP1G.
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Old 11-18-2012, 04:57 PM   #3484
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Originally Posted by laid-to-waste

if you're an atheist, you believe there's no god. simple

What about agnostic atheists? Those who believe that god could exist, but probably is as likely to exist as a self aware teapot at the centre of the universe.

I recognize that in principle, god could exist. However, I find myself thinking it extremely unlikely, to a point where whether it exists is neither here nor there when it comes to my decisions and behaviours.
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Old 11-18-2012, 05:02 PM   #3485
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from Gk. atheos, "without god, denying the gods; abandoned of the gods; godless, ungodly," from a- "without" + theos "a god"
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Old 11-18-2012, 05:09 PM   #3486
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Originally Posted by laid-to-waste
yes, but recognising that neither option is a reasonable absolute conclusion is the chief decision, given how it's never been about opinions regarding His existence; it's always been about belief.

if you're an atheist, you believe there's no god. simple


There's that much of a distinction between belief and opinion?
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Old 11-18-2012, 07:35 PM   #3487
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Originally Posted by laid-to-waste
those two aren't at all comparable or measurable though, so you can't really state that with any certainty whatsoever, the only thing you can say with certainty is they're 'equally unprovable at this moment in time'


But again, the fact that something is not currently provable does not make the likelihood of its existence equal to its non-existence.

If I tell you now that I have a pet dragon then you are in exactly the same position as we all are with regards to gods, but it's still vanishingly improbable that I do in fact have a dragon.
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Old 11-18-2012, 07:55 PM   #3488
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People of different religions and atheists can find common ground and live and work together as altruistic neighbours for the common good of everyone, this has been proven time and time again, so personaly, I'd much rather be a 'passive' agnostic-atheist and strive towards that ideal than be a 'militant atheist' bent on attempting to bring about the destruction of religion which in turn will just cause more 'pain and suffering'.

You said a lot, and some of it makes a lot of sense. But I have to question your logic there because I'm not sure where you are coming from. Why do you believe that ending religion will cause more pain and suffering? That may have been true in the past when societies were less organized and civil because religion was good way to police people and to stop the big and strong from taking what they wanted, but why is religion useful today? Much of what I've seen points toward religious intolerance infringing upon the rights of people, and in some cases ways for people to avoid taking responsibility for their own actions.

Also, I always thought the definition of a militant atheist was an atheist that attacks or instigates a debate on religion, not just an atheist who firmly believes that there is no god. Dawkins would be a militant atheist by my definition, even though I've heard him explain why we can only be agnostic, and his demeanor is not particularly aggressive. Or, for an even more laid-back and calm example, Sam Harris. Is that incorrect?

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Originally Posted by Arthur Curry
if we trust wikipedia's definition, a deity is a natural or preternatural being who possesses superhuman powers or qualities and is thought of as divine.

if you look around you'll find that most things possess superhuman powers or qualities. the sun, celestial bodies, birds, trees, water molecules...are all capable of acting in ways that you cannot. to say that not one of these existences can or should be thought of as divine strikes me as supremely irrational, W4RP1G.

I'm not sure if you believe you're going to discredit my entire argument by arguing semantics, or if there actually is some real issue with communication, but here's my definition of a deity: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deity

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Old 11-18-2012, 08:31 PM   #3489
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Originally Posted by W4RP1G
You said a lot, and some of it makes a lot of sense. But I have to question your logic there because I'm not sure where you are coming from. Why do you believe that ending religion will cause more pain and suffering? That may have been true in the past when societies were less organized and civil because religion was good way to police people and to stop the big and strong from taking what they wanted, but why is religion useful today? Much of what I've seen points toward religious intolerance infringing upon the rights of people, and in some cases ways for people to avoid taking responsibility for their own actions.

Some people feel their religion improves their quality of life. Believing that there are powers beyond human control is perfectly understandable imo.
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Old 11-18-2012, 08:33 PM   #3490
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^^Heresy Todd. You're talking about the existence of a transcendent being.

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Originally Posted by beadhangingOne
I think given what we currently know about the universe, it is highly unlikely that it was created by a 'god'.

Basically, the opinion that there is no god is a better and more sound opinion than the opinion that there is a god. [I](All other things being equal)[I]
Except your opinion.
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Old 11-18-2012, 08:57 PM   #3491
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Originally Posted by dubstar92
Some people feel their religion improves their quality of life. Believing that there are powers beyond human control is perfectly understandable imo.

I know that feeling, I used to be a Christian. But the thing is, losing that feeling doesn't mean your life is meaningless, or at least it hasn't meant that for myself and many other atheists. In fact, the popular opinion seems to be that once you lose those religious beliefs, you are now able to view life in a different(more meaningful) context because it's no longer just a pit-stop. So basically, life should have more meaning when you realize it's the only one you get.

And there are other changes in perspective that can occur, like no longer viewing people as either faithful or damned. It's very common for Christians(for example) to take on the spiteful nature of their God. Many Christians do in fact view people of other religions as being inferior to them. They are taught that their entire life, and their only reason is because their God believes they are better than someone else. Many people, Christians and atheists alike, try to downplay this. But that's what is taught in churches across the US, usually starting from childhood.

Once that inherent elitism and bigotry is no longer there, it's much easier to see that we are all in this together, and society will be what we put into it. Obviously western societies have made some huge improvements, in terms of tolerance, over the last 100 years, but that doesn't change that fact that religion makes some people believe that they are truly better than someone else based on absolutely nothing. I'm sure most people on here would not respect someone who believes that their race makes them superior to someone else, but the same complex is left alone when it's brought on by religion instead of race.

I see no reason to believe that, without religion, people would place less value on their existence. In fact, I think people would see their existence as being much more valuable if they didn't believe this was just a temporary lay-over on the way to paradise.

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Old 11-19-2012, 05:09 AM   #3492
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Originally Posted by W4RP1G
You said a lot, and some of it makes a lot of sense. But I have to question your logic there because I'm not sure where you are coming from. Why do you believe that ending religion will cause more pain and suffering?

You obviously cannot just snap your fingers and religion will magicaly disappear, so how exactly do you go about putting an end to religion? Obviously the only way is to ban religion and make it illegal, in other words, to try to force people to stop being religious, essentially telling people what they are and are not allowed to believe in. Do you seriously imagine that you could impliment such a move without widespread rebellion and fighting?

Tell me, how would you react if atheism was banned? If you were forced into accepting a belief system that you don't agree with? Would you just peacfully accept it or would you fight for the freedom to believe what you wish to believe in?
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That may have been true in the past when societies were less organized and civil because religion was good way to police people and to stop the big and strong from taking what they wanted, but why is religion useful today?

Religion gives people hope and acts as a coping strategy.
For example, my sister is VERY religious, her first child was born very premature and sadly didn't survive very long. She was completely devistated, I may be an atheist but I was seriously glad she had her religion at the time because I'm pretty sure that's what got her through such a horrible ordeal. Some people simply cannot cope with the thought of their own impending deaths or the impending deaths of their loved ones, to them, it's comforting to think of themselves or their loved ones somehow carrying on existing in an afterlife, but how can an afterlife possibly exist? Well, it'd help if a superrnatural being who has supreme authority over such things existed to make an afterlife exist.
Let's face it, there's a lot of suffering in the world, some people are born with debilitating conditions, some people have to live with constant pain or in extreme poverty or other hardships all their lives, believing that after they die they will somehow continue without such hardships is comforting to them and helps them to cope with their lives.
(Interestingly, as a side point, a person's wealth seems to affect the way they practice their religion. For example, poor Christians tend to just get on with living a blameless and altruistic life while rich Christians often spend much more time telling others what they should believe in.)

Also, there's the thought that God will either reward or punish people for behaving in certain ways in an eternal afterlife to consider. Some people may only act altruisticaly towards others because they feel that if they don't they will be faced with eternal punishment. Personaly, I don't care what inspires a person to act altruisticaly and not be mean and nasty towards others, if it's because of their religious belief, then so be it, because in certain cases the end result justifies the means.

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Much of what I've seen points toward religious intolerance infringing upon the rights of people,

This is true, but it makes much more sense to try to end religious intolerance than religion itself. You're never going to stop people believing in religion, but you can use a person's own religious belief to stop them being intolerant towards people with different beliefs.
Let's take the Abrahamic religions for example, the scriptures of Judaism, Christianity and Islam all state that only God alone has the right to judge and punish people for having the wrong belief. Those who follow any of these three major religions that are intolerant towards other people's beliefs are actualy going against the scriptures or their own religion. If we show such people the religious scriptures that effectively ban them from acting in an intolerant way, we stand a much better chance at changing their behaviour for the better than if we tried to force them to change their behaviour.

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Originally Posted by W4RP1G
and in some cases ways for people to avoid taking responsibility for their own actions.

And you think that ending religion will put an end to this? Believe me, with or without religion, there will always be people who will avoid taking responsibility for their own actions.
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Also, I always thought the definition of a militant atheist was an atheist that attacks or instigates a debate on religion, not just an atheist who firmly believes that there is no god. Dawkins would be a militant atheist by my definition, even though I've heard him explain why we can only be agnostic, and his demeanor is not particularly aggressive. Or, for an even more laid-back and calm example, Sam Harris. Is that incorrect?

The term can be defined in several different ways, I used it in the sense of an atheist who is bent on attempting to bring about the destruction of religion.

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Originally Posted by W4RP1G
I know that feeling, I used to be a Christian. But the thing is, losing that feeling doesn't mean your life is meaningless, or at least it hasn't meant that for myself and many other atheists. In fact, the popular opinion seems to be that once you lose those religious beliefs, you are now able to view life in a different(more meaningful) context because it's no longer just a pit-stop. So basically, life should have more meaning when you realize it's the only one you get.

And there are other changes in perspective that can occur, like no longer viewing people as either faithful or damned. It's very common for Christians(for example) to take on the spiteful nature of their God. Many Christians do in fact view people of other religions as being inferior to them. They are taught that their entire life, and their only reason is because their God believes they are better than someone else. Many people, Christians and atheists alike, try to downplay this. But that's what is taught in churches across the US, usually starting from childhood.

And as I've already explained, this type of lesson being taught in churches actualy goes against the scripture they follow. The problem is, religious people tend to believe what their religious leaders tell them, what is needed is religious leaders who tell them to respect people of different religions and belief systems and be tolerant towards them, as their scripture teaches.
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Originally Posted by W4RP1G
Once that inherent elitism and bigotry is no longer there, it's much easier to see that we are all in this together, and society will be what we put into it. Obviously western societies have made some huge improvements, in terms of tolerance, over the last 100 years, but that doesn't change that fact that religion makes some people believe that they are truly better than someone else based on absolutely nothing. I'm sure most people on here would not respect someone who believes that their race makes them superior to someone else, but the same complex is left alone when it's brought on by religion instead of race.

I see no reason to believe that, without religion, people would place less value on their existence. In fact, I think people would see their existence as being much more valuable if they didn't believe this was just a temporary lay-over on the way to paradise.


What you're failing to take into consideration is that everyone is different, we don't all think in the same way. Just because this thought process works for you, that doesn't mean that it will work for everyone else.
It's completely unrealistic to think that if we removed people's right to religious belief they would in turn react the way that you wish them to react.

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^^Heresy Todd. You're talking about the existence of a transcendent being.

Everyone's opinion is heresy to someone else. For example, if you were to state that there's only one God, that would be heresy to those who believe in polytheistic gods.
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Old 11-19-2012, 05:34 AM   #3493
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Pros and cons of religion. Depending on how you look at it, one outweighs the other, or they offset making it neutral. I tend to think the cons outweigh the pros, but there are definitely pros.

I liken it to drugs. Not saying it is, but this is just how I comprehend it personally. There are some positives with drugs (creativity, bonding, catharsis, etc.) and negatives. To me, there exists only a minority of people who benefit from drugs and who are equipped to handle them and use them in a "good" way. Same with religion. And it exists on a spectrum too, with fundamentalism and radical religion that breeds ignorance, hate, and oppression being heroin and meth, and just simple Christianity being like weed. Hell, some people would even say religion is a drug! Of course it isn't, but it does have a tremendous psychological effect on people.


The same reason we shouldn't ban drugs is the same reason we shouldn't ban religion. It depends on the user/believer how these things are used in the name of good or evil. However, we should continue to monitor both of these things to make sure they head in a positive direction.

This is just how I think of it personally, not really making any argument here.



In other news, got an A+ on an essay I wrote about fatalism and psychology for my Philosophy of Science class. I thought it was crap, until I went back and read it. My professor said "Critically strong, well organized, and concise". I emailed it to my folks and they said I had a twisted mind
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Old 11-19-2012, 06:01 AM   #3494
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Originally Posted by SlackerBabbath
You obviously cannot just snap your fingers and religion will magicaly disappear, so how exactly do you go about putting an end to religion? Obviously the only way is to ban religion and make it illegal, in other words, to try to force people to stop being religious, essentially telling people what they are and are not allowed to believe in. Do you seriously imagine that you could impliment such a move without widespread rebellion and fighting?

Tell me, how would you react if atheism was banned? If you were forced into accepting a belief system that you don't agree with? Would you just peacfully accept it or would you fight for the freedom to believe what you wish to believe in?

This is a problem. If I said somewhere that I want to see religion put to an end, then I misspoke. I only want to see it undermined to the point that it doesn't affect people who don't follow it. This is certainly obtainable without making religion illegal. The militant manner of atheists, like Dawkins, are often criticized, but that's a peaceful and effective way to spread knowledge and bringing the debate out into the open. It's very effective to have a video of someone using intellectual arguments against a theist on youtube.

I don't want to touch that anecdote about your sister with a 10 foot pole(seems inevitable that I would say something insensitive, and I definitely don't want to do that), and your other points are mostly speculation, some of which I think I could argue against if I weren't about to fall asleep while tying this, so I'm off to bed.
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Old 11-19-2012, 06:15 AM   #3495
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This is a problem. If I said somewhere that I want to see religion put to an end, then I misspoke.

Ahh, well that's a different matter then. Please excuse my misinterpretation of your points.

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Originally Posted by W4RP1G
I only want to see it undermined to the point that it doesn't affect people who don't follow it. This is certainly obtainable without making religion illegal. The militant manner of atheists, like Dawkins, are often criticized, but that's a peaceful and effective way to spread knowledge and bringing the debate out into the open. It's very effective to have a video of someone using intellectual arguments against a theist on youtube.

I still feel that it makes much more sense to try and convince the religious to afford everyone equal respect and the freedom to believe what they wish to believe using their own religious scripture rather than trying to undermine their religion by spouting atheist views at them. I just think they would be much more likely to listen and take it in that way.

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I don't want to touch that anecdote about your sister with a 10 foot pole(seems inevitable that I would say something insensitive, and I definitely don't want to do that), and your other points are mostly speculation, some of which I think I could argue against if I weren't about to fall asleep while tying this, so I'm off to bed.

Fair enough, I'm signing off now too, but we can continue this discussion tomorrow if you wish.
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Old 11-19-2012, 07:36 AM   #3496
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I guess i'll post a little contribution since this thread is pretty interesting.

My sister is a Christian (she does mission weeks, goes to church weekly without fail, studies the bible and so on) and i've been trying to show her that she has the courage to accept the truth rather than to lie to herself. By the same token she has tried to 'save me' countless times, often by showing me books about people performing 'miracles' that allegedly really happened. Just last night she showed me the book of the recent Chinese prisoner guy who was brushing with the law by being a Christian miracle worker and he tells of these stories about how all these miracles he performs in the name of God are allegedly true.

OK, so basically how do i stop my sister from trying to save me? I've told her that i am simply not interested, but she still tries to convince me. I also need to figure out how i can show her the truth in a way that she can readily accept, although i do find this task impossible as religious people have to forcibly lie to themselves for their value systems to function and they seem perfectly OK with that (i personally couldn't stand it). It makes me sad to see my sister believe in God. I love her, but in a way it crushes me to see her dedicate all of her life to a lie and how her coping mechinism with anything in life is her faith in a con artist and that she is happy to accept that her brother is going to hell for not believing in some God. It angers me and saddens me how she allows herself to be so stupid and allow this to control her own life.

It's not that i enjoy being an atheist, but at the same time i'm strong enough to accept the truth all that there is no Christian God whatsoever. I want to show my sister, Charlotte that a meaningful existence exists beyond some fictional dictator, but i don't know how. And yet, am i being an intolerant prick by trying to show her new existential perspectives?
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Old 11-19-2012, 07:40 AM   #3497
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And yet, am i being a prick?

Yep.
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Old 11-19-2012, 07:40 AM   #3498
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Yep.

By trying to show her the facts? Is that intolerance really?

And it's not like she doesn't do it either. I can call out that she's an intolerant prick towards my belief system by trying to shove these books down my throat.
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sounds more nasal than jack sniffing an ass

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Old 11-19-2012, 07:43 AM   #3499
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I also need to figure out how i can show her the truth

As if you fucking know it.

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i'm strong enough to accept the truth

The smugness is overpowering.

Show her whatever facts you like, just stop being so damn smarmy about it.
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Old 11-19-2012, 07:46 AM   #3500
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As if you fucking know it.

I know that I don't know. I would say that is actually rather humble.
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The smugness is overpowering.

Show her whatever facts you like, just stop being so damn smarmy about it.

Since when was it smug to say that i accept the evidence?

This is one thing i find annoying with the pit. Whenever i try to assert my own self-confidence i get accused of arrogance.
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