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Old 04-29-2012, 08:31 PM   #81
bradulator
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I don't see why society couldn't progress under an anarchic governance. But whatever. I see anarchy not as a society ungoverned, but as a society not bound by governance.


Sometimes I feel like an anarchist. But I usually end up concluding that i'm just a pacifist.
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Old 04-30-2012, 02:13 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by due 07
"Go ahead, argue that science and mathematics would progress without a structured society."

I'm terribly sorry for misunderstanding you, Mr. Axe, but that statement sure implies that anarchism is structureless. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
This is what I get for not putting "well-structured society." Ugh, fine, I'll spend too much time defining my position so you can yet again disregard it all.

Explain to me how medicine will improve under anarchy. I would ask about how science and math in general would advance but I'm afraid too many of you will give an answer like this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by █▐▌█▐▌
Like, y do we need science and mathematics to progress neway? Like, they dnt change the fundamental absurdity of existence.
but actually mean it.

So brah, how will anarchy improve medicine, which is something all sane people agree is important. How would anarchy research new medication? Hell, how would it even provide medical coverage as we are used to now? This is my main issue. How can anarchy be so great if it only promises to provide some theoretical utopia without the normal problems of other forms of government if it doesn't promise to improve literally anything else but some bullshit about resources and labor division?
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Old 04-30-2012, 09:55 AM   #83
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In what sense would conducting research require a statist condition to work?
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Old 04-30-2012, 10:08 AM   #84
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Ya, I'd imagine research would flourish w/ a system in which there isn't intellectual monopoly and centralization of information.
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Old 05-01-2012, 09:16 PM   #85
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I know I'm going to regret asking this, but you give an example?

My issue is that things like this: http://www.ligo-wa.caltech.edu/ don't happen on their own without the support of a large amount of capital and the cooperation of SEVERAL scientific institutions.
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Old 05-02-2012, 07:22 AM   #86
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It requires cooperation and pooling of resources between individuals and institutions, which isn't necessarily dependent on state intervention. I won't make a case on the efficiency of research in a free society as it will be flawed (who knows how Anarchism might work). However, going by the dispersion of research articles and information on the internet, I wouldn't rule it out just yet.
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Old 05-13-2012, 12:08 AM   #87
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I asked for an example not wishy washy bullshit.
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Old 05-22-2012, 07:20 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by axeslash
I asked for an example not wishy washy bullshit.


Your questions seem to be wishy-washy bullshit, though.

Why wouldn't science, mathematics, medicine and the ilk continue just the same? People can communicate, -if there is consensus, and if the resources are available they should be utilized.

Obviously building high-tech facilities require cooperation and they always will, just as a nuclear plant will always need people to maintain the reactor. Obviously resources require capital, but if the resources are available for the public, and consensus is granted, the resources will be utilized to BUILD that damn observatory.

On a side note, as much as I'm a fan of NASA and astronomy- observatories and the LHC are neat, but do they help the community?

Health care, food, water, electricity, education and housing for all people seem more important. Perhaps your wishy-washy space observations should come later.

You're right! These things wouldn't happen on their own until they were deemed necessary by consensus.
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Old 05-23-2012, 06:42 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lateraluspiral
Your questions seem to be wishy-washy bullshit, though.

Why wouldn't science, mathematics, medicine and the ilk continue just the same? People can communicate, -if there is consensus, and if the resources are available they should be utilized.

Obviously building high-tech facilities require cooperation and they always will, just as a nuclear plant will always need people to maintain the reactor. Obviously resources require capital, but if the resources are available for the public, and consensus is granted, the resources will be utilized to BUILD that damn observatory.

On a side note, as much as I'm a fan of NASA and astronomy- observatories and the LHC are neat, but do they help the community?

Health care, food, water, electricity, education and housing for all people seem more important. Perhaps your wishy-washy space observations should come later.

You're right! These things wouldn't happen on their own until they were deemed necessary by consensus.
First of all, I love the fact that your first retort was "NO U!" Very classy my man, very classy.

And now we come to the crux of every anarchistic argument: consensus and group action.

Ironically enough your post provides all the evidence I need against anarchism. You say that all of these important things can exist under an anarchistic society given group consensus that they are important enough to society. Now you have dismissed the LIGO installation as being unimportant, as many other people without a higher "appreciation" for science have done.

What benefits has the LIGO installation given us? Well, there is a near certainty that within the next year we will be able to prove or disprove the existence of gravity waves. Their proof will help us to expand upon our current scientific understandings and give us a whole new way to observe space. Disproof of gravity waves will be such a fundamental blow to our understanding of the universe that it will require massive reworking of how we look at special relativity. Either way, we win.

But since you are the kind of luddite who will cry "but what if they don't do anything useful" the installation itself has done pioneering research in scientific computing, materials research, and noise cancelling techniques. Laser technology has improved under the necessary research to create an effective infrared laser to use in the experiment. There are way more advances I could list but I'd have to give you a physics lesson for most of them. Trying to explain a "mode cleaner" to people without a basic knowledge of wave optics or photonic resonance is like pulling teeth.

People like you would not give their consensus to projects like this, which have given us tangible benefits to society. There are a examples of science experiments which didn't see an immediate use in society, but are so completely indispensable that no one would argue against the money spent to research them. Franklin rubbed glass and silk together, and most people nowadays would say "that is a silly thing to do, how did that help anybody?" His research and the research of others like him led to the electricity driven society we have today. We all want science to advance, but no one can ever say "spend $500,000,000,000, receive reliable fusion generation."

How about this. Look up the history of electricity. Look up the kinds of experiments and techniques people used in early experiments on electricity. In fact I'll make it simpler. Look up Hans Christian Ørsted. He discovered that the currents in a wire create a magnetic field. Is this useful? Some people would say "no," while others would say "that sure sounds neat." Educated people would say "the simple knowledge of the fact that magnetic fields and currents interact is so fundamental to electricity that we would not be able to do ANYTHING without it."

Uneducated people making decisions about science is literally the worst Hell I can imagine living in.

In conclusion: you are a luddite, your opinion is invalid, and how the hell is "giving consensus" to a project or idea different than democracy?
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Last edited by axeslash : 05-23-2012 at 06:48 AM.
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Old 05-23-2012, 05:30 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by axeslash

*masturbation*

In conclusion: you are a luddite, your opinion is invalid, and how the hell is "giving consensus" to a project or idea different than democracy?


It is democratic--- thats the whole point, isn't it?
as for your seeming appreciation of democracy, i love that you point out that people can have "invalid" opinions, with no sense of irony. you must love democracy, god forbid people have opinions

obviously my first response wasn't "no u!" as you seem to misunderstand. im saying the example youre asking for is somewhat irrelevant to the point of the movement. the answer given by someone else before i joined this thread seemed sufficient, (something along the lines of "no one can predict the future") but you deemed it "bullshit"

you missed my argument completely, or actively ignored it, whichever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by axeslash
But since you are the kind of luddite who will cry "but what if they don't do anything useful"

i wasn't saying these experiments have no benefit (words you seemed to have shoved in my mouth - great argument skills btw), im saying they're worthless compared to the bigger problems humanity faces.
you don't HAVE to ignore what i'm saying, but if you do i'll assume you're trolling

If you need a concise answer from this "luddite", which you obviusly require, I guess I'd have to ask why couldn't they continue under anarchism? You seem to base the problems with this on the way society currently functions, which in your words I guess would be "uneducated". I'm willing to have a discussion with you, but don't ignore my responses and resort to name calling, and then call my response un-classy for using sarcasm.

In conclusion: these projects would most likely continue, due to democracy and consensus, secondary to more pressing matters. all opinions are valid, even your intentionally misguided ones
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Old 05-23-2012, 05:33 PM   #91
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damn this is some serious shit

you guys should relax and have a beer
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Old 05-23-2012, 07:11 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lateraluspiral
I'd have to ask why couldn't they continue under anarchism?

because he thinks "anarchism" and "well-structured society" are mutually exclusive.

axe your entire argument is just a bunch of moving goalposts and false premises.
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Old 05-23-2012, 08:34 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by due 07
axe your entire argument is just a bunch of moving goalposts and false premises.

oh right you're still pretty new here
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Old 05-24-2012, 03:38 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by due 07
because he thinks "anarchism" and "well-structured society" are mutually exclusive.
Yup. Guess that makes me one of those crazies who isn't an expert on a political philosophy I find trivial.

Educate me due 07. Show me the light.
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Old 05-24-2012, 04:06 AM   #95
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In the basest sense, government exists to protect you from me and vice versa. Because the 'state of nature' looks a lot more like Hobbes envisioned it than how Locke did.
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Old 05-24-2012, 09:09 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by █▐▌█▐▌
oh right you're still pretty new here

Lul.
Quote:
Originally Posted by axeslash
Yup. Guess that makes me one of those crazies who isn't an expert on a political philosophy I find trivial.

Educate me due 07. Show me the light.

I already explained to you that the two aren't mutually exclusive and provided examples for you. I believe you replied and called my examples "magical."
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Old 05-24-2012, 02:53 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by axeslash
It's just funny to see all these people talk about the merits of anarchy and when you ask them why they buy their stuff at Wal-Mart they explain that since it isn't an anarchistic society we live in and people are all huge jerks they have to play by societies rules.

All I am saying is that anarchists literally have the cutest cop outs. Nothing is cuter than the political opinions of anarchists.


An anarchist shopping at wal-mart won't stop him from being an anarchist. That's like saying a capitalist shouldn't give gifts, because there's no profit. Completely absurd and if you would have stopped and thought for a split second about the difference between philosophy and practice. Their "cute answer" could be considered the "correct answer"- their philosophy is difficult to practice in most societies...


Quote:
Originally Posted by axeslash
So how exactly is it that people think anarchy is awesome when it takes so little effort to wreck everything people worked on for over 40 years? Like how hard do you have to cognitive dissonance your brain into not seeing how blindingly useless a system as fragile as that is?


A "cute" ( hehe ) opinion about anarchism here. Most anarchist seek to abolish all illegitimate forms of authority, not simply authority. If another society enters into and seeks to destroy/take over an anarchist society, the anarchists using self-defense to protect their society wouldn't be an illegitimate use of authority, nor coercive, but merely a survival tactic.
It's the same logic that the United States employed when demanding a well-regulated militia (2nd amendment) to further protect themselves against the threat European Monarchs against their free society. I can't imagine many anarchists denying the use of self-defense(minus perhaps pacifists, i cant speak for all, clearly just my own opinions).
Simply because anarchist societies have been destroyed by force in the past doesn't imply that they are fragile societies, or even inherently weak for promoting cooperation and equality.

You sound like you're from another planet
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Old 05-24-2012, 07:55 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lateraluspiral
An anarchist shopping at wal-mart won't stop him from being an anarchist. That's like saying a capitalist shouldn't give gifts, because there's no profit. Completely absurd and if you would have stopped and thought for a split second about the difference between philosophy and practice. Their "cute answer" could be considered the "correct answer"- their philosophy is difficult to practice in most societies...
More of a sidenote than anything else, but your analogy is silly. Capitalists are people who use capital; an assertion that gift giving is uncapitalistic is juvenile at best. Again, more of a sidenote, but pointing out infantile analogies is something I just can't help but enjoy.
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Originally Posted by lateraluspiral
Simply because anarchist societies have been destroyed by force in the past doesn't imply that they are fragile societies, or even inherently weak for promoting cooperation and equality.

You sound like you're from another planet
My argument is that a fragile society is a bad society. If you live in a magical world of freedom and equality then good for you. If that society should collapse for any number of reasons like famine (through their own fault, not nature-caused), economic collapse, internal power struggles, or other types of problems then the society wasn't very good to begin with. If a society existed in perfect harmony but was conquered by another nation than that is too bad, but if they were conquered by a comically weak nation then their society wasn't effective. I add this so you people won't misconstrue me as supporting heavy militarism.

A society described by anarchism is nice. But a more effective society could be reached under socialism or a Republic, and I would argue that this would be better under almost all circumstances.
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Old 05-24-2012, 08:23 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by axeslash
More of a sidenote than anything else, but your analogy is silly. Capitalists are people who use capital; an assertion that gift giving is uncapitalistic is juvenile at best.

That's his point! Your assertion that anarchists oughn't shop at walmart is "jevenile at best."

Anarchists are people who subscribe to an anarchist political philosophy of whatever persuasion -- whether or not they shop at walmart is irrelevant. Shopping at walmart isn't unbecoming behavior of an anarchist just as giving gifts isn't unbecoming behavior of capitalist rat dogs.
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Old 05-24-2012, 08:26 PM   #100
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oughn't

Oughtn't is a fun word. I don't get to use it nearly enough. It's so needlessly pretentious.
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