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Old 03-30-2012, 01:06 PM   #41
BadBanshee
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Originally Posted by jkielq91
I'll also say this.

A simple guitar piece with easy technique and theory in it with lots of powerful feeling is an advanced piece of guitar playing that most guitar players would fail to pull off.


There's always something that makes that feeling powerful, something advanced about the guitar playing. It'll be the small details that fast players will often overlook like how long you hold on to a note for, or how hard or soft you play the string on a particular note.

I know someone who has shredding ability to die for, but when they play a slow riff that requires a certain amount of energy and pace for each note, they somehow manage to just make it sound as lifeless as the shreds they play. They don't pay attention to anything but where the next note is.
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Old 03-30-2012, 03:42 PM   #42
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Pick a random song by a non-metal famous electric guitarist. Pick a random song by a metal famous electric guitarist. You probably find it harder to play the metal guitarist's tunes.


Highly doubtful. I doubt most metal players would know where to start when it comes to playing jazz, fusion, or progressive rock.
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Old 03-30-2012, 03:59 PM   #43
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Well you can always shut a metal guitarist up by placing a sheet of standard music notation in front of him.
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Old 03-30-2012, 04:31 PM   #44
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That would shut up most guitarists no matter the genre.
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Old 03-30-2012, 04:52 PM   #45
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That would shut up most guitarists no matter the genre.


Most classical and jazz players can read.
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Old 03-30-2012, 05:02 PM   #46
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Honestly, as a primarily metal guy myself, very few of the real guitar monsters are metal guys. I would almost say your original post is the other way round, I can count on one hand the amount of metal guys I count as having genuinely world class technique -

Chris Broderick
Jeff Loomis
Michael Romeo
Obsidian Claw
Andy James

Not that there aren't a lot of really good metal guys, but I would count those in the top tier.

Whereas there's guys out there like Andreas Oberg, Allan "Floopin" Holdsworth, Shawn Lane and Guthrie Govan that are just on a whole different level to almost metal guy out there, and tons of great classical and acoustic players you don't want to hear about.

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Originally Posted by Brainpolice2
Highly doubtful. I doubt most metal players would know where to start when it comes to playing jazz, fusion, or progressive rock.


And very few jazz, fusion or prog rock guys can play challenging metal.
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Old 03-30-2012, 06:00 PM   #47
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So what's so different about metal and jazz that you think a jazz guitarist would be out of their depth trying to play a metal piece and a metal guitarist would be the same with a jazz piece? From what I've seen they can both play super fast.
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Old 03-30-2012, 06:11 PM   #48
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the difference is that in jazz you have to actually have to think about more than 1 tonal center and besides running 3 nps diatonic patterns in uninteresting combinations.
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Old 03-30-2012, 06:13 PM   #49
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Super fast stuff is not all the same. Take your average Slayer tune, that's about twice as fast as even a fairly nifty jazz guitarist can pick (~220bpm 16ths!). Take your average jazz line - that's got about twice as many string crossings as a fairly nifty metal guitarist is comfortable with.

Not to mention the articulation in both styles is totally different.

And note choice.

And that jazz is almost entirely improvised and metal almost entirely arranged.

What's similar about them?

In general jazz guys would be more comfortable with metal than vice versa... because you need a lot more theory knowledge, better ears, and better chops to play decent jazz than you do decent metal. Hence why I said challenging metal.
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Old 03-30-2012, 06:14 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by BadBanshee
From what I've seen they can both play super fast.

... in completely different styles.

The equipment used, tone produced, techniques used, physical (metal guys gotta have crazy stamina in their picking hand for example) and mental (jazz guys gotta know all sorts of chords in different inversions and positions, metal guys gotta memorise some intricite lines and riffs too) strengths required are all very different and make the genres two very different beasts.
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Last edited by Hydra150 : 03-30-2012 at 06:15 PM.
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Old 03-30-2012, 06:38 PM   #51
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Steve Lukather and Gary Moore are just 2 examples of guitarists that excell in many genres.
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Old 03-30-2012, 06:55 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Hydra150
Most classical and jazz players can read.



I used to think so for jazz but I find that less than half that I meet have a useful ability to sight read but can muddle through it if you give them a lot of time. Classical folk are much better at reading but the culture around classical guitar places very little emphasis on actually sight reading. They can usually read some pretty quick single note melodies fairly well.
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Old 03-30-2012, 07:33 PM   #53
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The issue here is simply that the definition of "talent" being applied is a very narrow one.

Metal emphasizes a certain set of techniques, and people who listen exclusively or nearly-exclusively to metal may conflate "being talented" with "mastery of the techniques the metal emphasizes."

There are plenty of very skilled metal musicians. But if your definition of "talented" is limited to guys who play the stuff your typical metal fan thinks of as requiring talent, then you're missing huge chunks of the world of music.
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Old 03-30-2012, 07:37 PM   #54
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cant be bothered to read 3 pages of posts but based on the original post

someone said (i cant remember) neil young puts more emotion into a 3 note guitar solo than most guitarists ive heard , saying that i dont really like neil young and i do like a fair bit metal but the point still stands
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Old 03-30-2012, 09:05 PM   #55
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Perhaps I'm a bit biased, but nowadays, when I encounter most metal guitarists, I'm left with the impression their personal conceptions of complexity tend to be pretty amatuer and limited. Most of their ideas are rythmically plain or boring in my perception, and often repetitive to a fault. There are lots of shows of speed and technique, but they often waver in and out of musical coherancy.

Most of the conceptions of "neo-classical" boil down to a few cliches that barely scratch the surface of the ideas that can be gotten out of classical music; it's classical music filtered through the mind of an untrained rock guitarist.Even worse, when bands that really don't have much of any connection with classical sensibilities in the first place try to put strings behind their songs (think Metallica), it doesn't really work - it's the sound of an orchestra trying to play power chord lines in a way that borders on being hilarious.

When often relatively young, inexperienced, non-trained metal musicians think that they are doing something technical or complex or progressive, it tends to be underwhelming from a broader musical perspective. It often comes off as if they really do not know what they are doing, but they certainly are trying to be complex, with certain pretensions of what that means. Take Periphery as a contemporary archetype of this.

Last edited by Brainpolice2 : 03-30-2012 at 09:13 PM.
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Old 03-30-2012, 09:12 PM   #56
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^Very well put. I wish I could say it as clearly and concisely as that.
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Old 03-30-2012, 09:13 PM   #57
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^^ That is pretty much my perception of amateur metal guitarists too.
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Old 03-30-2012, 10:05 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by BadBanshee
So what's so different about metal and jazz that you think a jazz guitarist would be out of their depth trying to play a metal piece and a metal guitarist would be the same with a jazz piece? From what I've seen they can both play super fast.


I think part of the problem here is that you're more or less defining "technical" as "fast", as a vague generality, without regaurd for further considerations that play into complexity and technicality. Doesn't the actual content of the parts matter, and a host of other factors that take talent which go into playing an instrument (like dynamic control)?

It's is one thing to play fast (possibly in a repetitive, limited way, likely over minimal to no chord changes), it is another thing to play complex parts fast (linear scalar runs and up/down arpeggios are not complex parts), to play fast and coherantly over lots of changes (what would Dimebag have done over Giants Steps?), or to have a completely fluent improvization while being fast.

As far as your question, I think most modern jazz and classical guitarists would have the music theory understanding and background to be able to immediately make sense of metal, as well as the chops to play most of it (a well seasoned jazz player isnt going to struggle to play power chord riffs and scalar patterns), although they would likely not be used to playing with the kind of dynamics (genrally completely fullblast) and sounds (extremely distorted tones) that the genre tends to employ. I think most of them would in fact find it boring to play.

On the flip side, I think most metal players would likely feel like they do not understand jazz and would find it pretty challenging to learn to play it from scratch, because it involves such a broad musical palette that is likely outside their comfort zone. Most metal guitarists are not like Alex Skolnick, who made a concious move into jazz. It isn't as likely that a metal guitarist is going to immediately know what to do for a D7b5/b9, or tap into the rythmic feel of a fast swing or be able to keep up with the changes.

It's no coincidence that quite a few of the better players who do dabble in metal to some extent come from either classical or jazz training backgrounds - like Macalpine (classical, jazz, piano) and Petrucci (a Berklee guy). What this issue mostly boils down to is the fact that jazz has notable ties to music education that isn't the case for metal, and the fact that jazz as music is by its nature more diverse in what it can draw from than metal.

P.S. You made another comment saying that you're looking for guys that can do multiple parts at once. Well, most classical and jazz players already are accustomed to doing that to one degree or another. Classical guitarists play counterpoint all the time. Lots of jazz players do stuff like a bassline and chords at once, chord-melodies, and various ways of doing counterpoint in jazz.

Last edited by Brainpolice2 : 03-30-2012 at 10:28 PM.
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Old 03-30-2012, 10:28 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Brainpolice2
As far as your question, I think most modern jazz and classical guitarists would have the music theory understanding and background to be able to immediately make sense of metal, as well as the chops to play most of it (a well seasoned jazz player isnt going to struggle to play power chord riffs and scalar patterns), although they would likely not be used to playing with the kind of dynamics (genrally completely fullblast) and sounds (extremely distorted tones) that the genre tends to employ. I think most of them would in fact find it boring to play.


Not to mention the very different instrunments guitarists in the two styles tend to play - Id like to see Wes Montgomery (inb4 'hes dead') try playing a droptuned ibanez RG with super low action and a whammy bar, and I wonder how your average metaller would cope with a Gibson L-7 strung with .13s.
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Old 03-30-2012, 10:30 PM   #60
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Not to mention the very different instrunments guitarists in the two styles tend to play - Id like to see Wes Montgomery (inb4 'hes dead') try playing a droptuned ibanez RG with super low action and a whammy bar, and I wonder how your average metaller would cope with a Gibson L-7 strung with .13s.


The mental image brings lolz.
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