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Old 04-10-2012, 07:40 PM   #1
corrda00
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Progressive?

I've noticed a lot these days that metal and hardcore bands use the word progressive too easily to describe their music.

I feel that progressive should mean incorperating high art forms such as classical, jazz and world music, not just being a death metal band that has 1 time signature change and a riff with more than 3 or 4 notes.

Bands like Opeth and Dream Theater are progressive. Your metalcore band that incorperates a little bit of black or death metal here and there is not.

I just find that a band shouldn't be calling themselves progressive if they havent even heard of bands like King Crimson or ELP or even know what a scale or paralell 5ths is.

End rant.
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Old 04-10-2012, 07:50 PM   #2
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Lately everything is called progressive if it hits the seven minute mark. The terrible mess that is Bring Me The Horizon is no longer 'crap' according to hordes of butthurt fans but instead 'progressive technical post hardcore'.

But it's not something I like to dwell on much. There are idiots in the world. The least we can do is give them attention, and I'd rather not do that.
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Old 04-10-2012, 08:08 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Aays
Lately everything is called progressive if it hits the seven minute mark. The terrible mess that is Bring Me The Horizon is no longer 'crap' according to hordes of butthurt fans but instead 'progressive technical post hardcore'.

But it's not something I like to dwell on much. There are idiots in the world. The least we can do is give them attention, and I'd rather not do that.






People are really calling BMTH progressive?
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Old 04-10-2012, 09:53 PM   #4
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the problem is that people these days equate being "technical" with being "progressive." There are lots of bands out there that are technical, but aren't very progressive at all (something like Zero Hour or Spiral Architect comes to mind).... likewise, there are bands out there that are very progressive that aren't necessarily very technical (Pink Floyd, Porcupine Tree, or Beardfish anyone?).

Brain isn't working properly right now, i hope that little diatribe makes sense.
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Old 04-11-2012, 05:13 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by MonsterMetalMus
People are really calling BMTH progressive?


I've heard Suicide Silence being called progressive.

Read that slowly.

Suicide Silence.

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Old 04-11-2012, 05:31 PM   #6
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How is incorporating different genres of music into your own Progressive? And how is Dream Theater any different than the Metalcore band you're talking about? What Classical or World music do they incorporate into the music?
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Old 04-11-2012, 05:45 PM   #7
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Public Image Ltd. are progressive becuz they quoted Tchaikovsky in "Death Disco/Swan Lake".
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Old 04-12-2012, 09:26 AM   #8
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Agreed. I am a genre freak and I only label bands progressive if they are. Like DT, Protest the Hero, Rush, The Flower Kings, LTE, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morphogenesis26
How is incorporating different genres of music into your own Progressive? And how is Dream Theater any different than the Metalcore band you're talking about? What Classical or World music do they incorporate into the music?


This song has 106 time signature changes fit into a 6 minute song. Petrucci uses several classical and world techniques in his playing, such as:


Your metalcore band simply plays some low B power chords palm muted and screams. It doesn't include such a skill and difficulty that progressive does. Metalcore is sort of the "I Can Play Metal" genre, while prog is more of a "snap-the-guitar" genre.
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Old 04-12-2012, 12:34 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gateway01
Agreed. I am a genre freak and I only label bands progressive if they are. Like DT, Protest the Hero, Rush, The Flower Kings, LTE, etc.



This song has 106 time signature changes fit into a 6 minute song. Petrucci uses several classical and world techniques in his playing, such as:


Your metalcore band simply plays some low B power chords palm muted and screams. It doesn't include such a skill and difficulty that progressive does. Metalcore is sort of the "I Can Play Metal" genre, while prog is more of a "snap-the-guitar" genre.


Those songs sound more like just Technical Metal and I really don't hear the Classical or World influence in either. Could you be specific and point some things out?

As for the Metalcore part...



That song is played in D-Standard, has many Time Signature changes throughout, tempo changes multiple times, strange chordal patterns, extremely jarring and intense vocals, ravenous and complex drumming, and a generally kick ass song.

That is what Metalcore is.

EDIT: As for the "Snap-the-guitar" part, most of King Crimson and Yes's earlier works weren't that technical, but still considered Progressive music.
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Old 04-12-2012, 05:55 PM   #10
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Quote:
EDIT: As for the "Snap-the-guitar" part, most of King Crimson and Yes's earlier works weren't that technical, but still considered Progressive music.


On the contrary. Just because Yes or King Crimson wasn't distorted and loud doesn't mean that they weren't technical. Have you ever actually tried to play "Roundabout" or "21st Century Schizoid Man"? They are extremely complex songs, almost equal to the fast strumming of Dream Theater and Protest the Hero.

There is a little known King Crimson song called "Matte Kudasai" that really incorporates a lot of the "world" elements earlier discussed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykkF...&feature=relmfu
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Old 04-12-2012, 08:58 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gateway01
On the contrary. Just because Yes or King Crimson wasn't distorted and loud doesn't mean that they weren't technical. Have you ever actually tried to play "Roundabout" or "21st Century Schizoid Man"? They are extremely complex songs, almost equal to the fast strumming of Dream Theater and Protest the Hero.

There is a little known King Crimson song called "Matte Kudasai" that really incorporates a lot of the "world" elements earlier discussed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykkF...&feature=relmfu


That's why I said "Most" of their works. And even then, the Dream Theater songs would take far more time to get down and play cleanly than those.

Here's a question I should ask then; If you are taking other elements of music and form it together, then how is that Progression? Dream Theater didn't put forth a sound that was unheard of before. Sure, the Aesthetic may have been different, but at it's core it had been done by the likes of Emerson Lake And Palmer and Rush(mostly Rush).

I think the term for a band like Dream Theater and such would be "Neo-Prog".
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Old 04-12-2012, 09:04 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Morphogenesis26
That's why I said "Most" of their works. And even then, the Dream Theater songs would take far more time to get down and play cleanly than those.

Here's a question I should ask then; If you are taking other elements of music and form it together, then how is that Progression? Dream Theater didn't put forth a sound that was unheard of before. Sure, the Aesthetic may have been different, but at it's core it had been done by the likes of Emerson Lake And Palmer and Rush(mostly Rush).

I think the term for a band like Dream Theater and such would be "Neo-Prog".


Modern rappers were derived from bands like Faith No More an The Red Hot Chili Peppers. Do you call them "Neo-Rap"?

A genre constantly evolves with every new addition, taking from the old and adding to the new. You can't completely displace them because they were inspired by others, not unless there is some drastic change like metal branching off from rock or such. Just because prog's influences are older doesn't change that they're prog.

Do you see what I mean?
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Old 04-12-2012, 10:06 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gateway01
Modern rappers were derived from bands like Faith No More an The Red Hot Chili Peppers. Do you call them "Neo-Rap"?

A genre constantly evolves with every new addition, taking from the old and adding to the new. You can't completely displace them because they were inspired by others, not unless there is some drastic change like metal branching off from rock or such. Just because prog's influences are older doesn't change that they're prog.

Do you see what I mean?


I'm not the most knowledgeable on the subject of Hip-Hop, so I can't comment on it.

I see what you mean, but it feels like a lot of Progressive Metal bands of today, and even from it's inception, don't really play something that' Progresses the genre or music, it just tries to sound like the classic Prog artists. That's not what Progression is to me.

I think this is where it becomes a matter of personal opinion and what each person defines as "Progressive". Neither definition is wrong or bad, just a different way of viewing things.

Different strokes for Different folks.
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Old 04-13-2012, 09:21 AM   #14
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I think a lot of people tend to think of progressive music as the be-all, end-all of musical composition in rock music. That's a silly way of thinking.
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Old 04-13-2012, 09:35 AM   #15
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I could name key aspects of genres if I had to, but for the most part, I know what bands fall into what genre based on the bands I know which they sound like. It's very difficult to differentiate between experimental, progressive and avant-garde, but when it comes to it, just taxonomise based on your informed instinct. I came across Tides of Man recently: everyone says they're progressive rock, yet I think they're post hardcore. A little experimental, sure, but they don't sound like any other prog rock I've heard. I do agree: people throw the term around too much.

I think that the original meaning behind prog rock is now lost, and people use the term to describe a sound that the bands in the genre have, rather than the original meaning behind the name.

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Old 04-13-2012, 09:44 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gateway01
On the contrary. Just because Yes or King Crimson wasn't distorted and loud doesn't mean that they weren't technical. Have you ever actually tried to play "Roundabout" or "21st Century Schizoid Man"? They are extremely complex songs, almost equal to the fast strumming of Dream Theater and Protest the Hero.

There is a little known King Crimson song called "Matte Kudasai" that really incorporates a lot of the "world" elements earlier discussed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykkF...&feature=relmfu
Now that you mention it, 21st Century Schizoid Man is sooo Dream Theater. A massive solo after the second chorus that's 3 minutes long? ...Dream Theater.

With regard to the whole Technical vs Progressive. Yes Progressive refers more to structure whilst Technical refers to rhythm patterns, but there is a LOT of crossover. Even Porcupine Tree have some Technical elements in songs like Futile and Anesthetize.
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Old 04-13-2012, 10:54 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Banjocal
I think that the original meaning behind prog rock is now lost, and people use the term to describe a sound that the bands in the genre have, rather than the original meaning behind the name.


That's what I meant. Thank you for summing all my posts in here up in a sentence.
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Old 04-13-2012, 11:03 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morphogenesis26
That's what I meant. Thank you for summing all my posts in here up in a sentence.
Any time. I didn't read the OP properly, so that went better than expected.

To be honest, the meaning behind progressive rock has now moved onto the label "experimental rock" and when it's too whacky to be experimental, they call it avant-garde . If you look at how the two are labelled, the semantics of expt. rock are similar to prog, only there seems to be a stronger focus on physical manipulation of instruments and blending different genres even more than prog did. Back then of course, that was (sort of) the definition of prog rock.
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Old 04-13-2012, 11:05 AM   #19
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ITT: People who have only an entry level view on progressive music, metalcore and music in general overreacting to things they hear from that one scene kid in their music class, and telling other people what their music is and isn't.

Aside from the obvious exceptions, and they know if I'm talking to them.
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Old 04-13-2012, 07:36 PM   #20
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I think that the original meaning behind prog rock is now lost, and people use the term to describe a sound that the bands in the genre have, rather than the original meaning behind the name.


I think we have reached a consensus.
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