Brainpolice2

Xaoxi said:



This definitely flows better, thanks for the suggestions. I love you how you made the 4th measure go to the VII, and the winding inner voices on measure 5. You make a few moves in the bass that I'd be afraid to make, but they make perfect melodic sense.



Noted. I felt pushed into those for some reason. Probably from too rigidly sticking to what I originally wrote in the bass - hence the only reason they are there is because they seemed to be forced by the line. Should have played around a little more to find something else.

I will say that there are times in which, in a way, I fell like I may be straight-jacketing myself in that when I leap by a 3rd, I'm scared to continue in the same directoin by anything but step (and once in a while, another 3rd leap) - which then closes me off to a more flexible bassline.

When I look at some of Bach's chorales, the bassline sometimes does what appears to be some rather funky things, and I don't completely have the intuition for how to write as freely as him.

My 2nd one (the Bb major one) was all-around more well-flowing, IMO. The one main rule-breaking and awkwardness I see is in what happens with the bass and tenor from the last beat of measure 4 to the first beat of measure 5 (the bass goes above where the tenor was, after a unison, and the tenor leaps up to make up for it).

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TheHydra

Here's mine:
http://www.noteflight.com/scores/vi...8e9f2c7b0b6c48f

This was actually kind of difficult.

Brainpolice2

My criticism of the 2nd line would first focus on the first measure, where you go from the root to a flat 7 and then back up - and you repeat this twice, with the exact same notes constituting the 2nd measure, then you leap downwards from the 7th at the beginning of the 3rd measure.

The repetition itself makes it non-flowing, and since you're in a minor key, going "minor 7 to tonic" at the beginning makes it awkward as far as establishing the minor center. Generally, when there's a flat 7th (or a 7th in general), it moves downward by step.

The Cantus firmus (if that's yours) is much stronger this time.

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Brainpolice2

You might want to unprivatize your score. The link says its unavailable.

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TheHydra

Sorry about that. It's public now.

AeolianWolf

i should point out that the only time you're allowed to use a whole note in the counterpoint in 2nd species is in the last two measures, and its use in the penultimate measure is optional.

in the second measure and in the third to last measure, you leap out of a dissonance (the M2 and the P11). no good. take what you have and fix it up -- no need to redo the whole thing.

and E to D is a m7, not a M7, but that doesn't really matter here.

Emil - redo your first species. there are a lot of problems with it. firstly, use the cantus firmus we're using (the one you used for second species). try it again, using the regulations i set forth for first species.

in your second species, you have parallel fifths on two consecutive strong beats in measures 7 and 8. change that up.

Azhark, try it again using the fux cantus firmus.

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TheHydra

Alright, I think I fixed up all the issues. It actually sounds better and has more contrary motion now. Thanks!

http://www.noteflight.com/scores/vi...8e9f2c7b0b6c48f

AeolianWolf

it does sound better. couple things, though. check measure 5. be sure you note that you have a G in the cantus firmus, not an A. you'll need to change your counterpoint accordingly. and in measure 9, you have the offbeat labeled as a P11, but it's actually a m10.

if it WAS a P11, you wouldn't be able to jump into it as you did. thankfully, it's a tenth, and the counterpoint is effective. getting better!

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TheHydra

Ah, thank you. Fixed again!

http://www.noteflight.com/scores/vi...8e9f2c7b0b6c48f

I feel like it's kind of aimless, though. Dorian counterpoint in general sounds odd to me so far.

Xiaoxi

I don't really think about the harmony...my only concern is the melodic lines. If they work well they will naturally produce the right harmony. That's why I say forget about the rules and intervals and isolated species studies. Just completely throw yourself in Bach's melodic language until it becomes your native language as well!

So rather than doing species, this thread inspired me to take something from one of the solo violin partitas and realize a single line movement into 3-part counterpoint. I'll post it up within a few days.

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TheHydra

With all that in mind, what would you look for when analyzing a Bach piece?

Xiaoxi

Well, the first thing you have to do is immerse yourself in his idioms and syntax. There are no shortcuts around this--you just have to listen to Bach obsessively until you become fluent in his style. Treat every single line with its own integrity. People often say Bach's music has an "inevitable" quality to it. That's because each part of the whole is beautiful, strong, and meaningful by itself. That's what makes the sum of all the parts so convincing and irrefutable.

You will notice that he is a very consistent person, and have lots of recurring tendencies in his music. These consistencies reveal all of the microscopic ways he takes care of counterpoint. Look both with a microscope and telescope when taking in his music.

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Analyzing Brahms: Insights to Help Us Improve Our Music

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TheHydra

Can do. I'm already in the process of this.


How long have you been studying Bach's music?

Xiaoxi

About......8 years...loooooooooooooooool

Eh kinda. I played his music mindlessly on the violin and hated him and didn't get him until college.

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Analyzing Brahms: Insights to Help Us Improve Our Music

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TheHydra

Are there any other contrapuntal composers that have something to offer? I know Bach is the undisputed master, but surely there must be others with a unique take.

Xiaoxi

Oh sure.

Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, Mendelssohn, Debussy, Hindemith, Shostakovich, Vaughn Williams, Bartok, and Stravinsky comes to mind.

Mozart is very much in the style of Bach. Beethoven started to push it in a slightly freer direction. Starting with Debussy, these composers started building new contrapuntal languages...evolutions of Bach's.

But one thing they all have in common...they all studied Bach with more intensity than any other works.

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Analyzing Brahms: Insights to Help Us Improve Our Music

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I got Last.fm. Don't know why...

TheHydra

Wow, Stravinsky? I legitimately wouldn't have thought him to be a Bach fanatic.

One more question that's kind of dumb and tangential:

Is the dark side stronger?

There's apparently a lot of debate as to who wrote the infamous "Toccata and Fugue in D Minor". The general public knows it as a Bach piece, some say he did write it and the harmony was filled in by an amateur, some say a close friend of the Bach family wrote it, some say it's actually a violin piece that's been warped and mutated, and I want to know what your take on it is. Does it match up stylistically with Bach's works?

Xiaoxi

I honestly can't think of any master composers who aren't Bach fanatics.


I hate this piece. And yea, I'm gonna tell myself he didn't write it. It really is inconsistent with his idioms in a lot of places, which becomes a lot more noticeable in the fugue. It's just so sloppy, unpolished, and oversaturated.

It is very feasible that someone else wrote it. Back then, lesser known composers used more successful names to get exposure and sales.

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Analyzing Brahms: Insights to Help Us Improve Our Music

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TheHydra

You should take the theme from the fugue and make a more realistic Bach fugue from it.

Thanks for all the info. I really appreciate it.