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Old 07-23-2012, 01:46 PM   #61
AeolianWolf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EmilGD
Sorry, but I can't see how my first CF differ from yours or my second? Apart from the tempo being 250 rather than 200. I'm quite sure I even copy-pasted it from first to second.

Will look into improving the second.
EDIT: This is hard lol, might end up starting over again later.


oops. yeah, never mind. do check your first, though. in measures 4-5 you have a descending jump of a M7 - jumps of a 7th are forbidden in species counterpoint.
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Old 07-23-2012, 05:00 PM   #62
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Aight, found a solution to the jump. But here is my brand new attempt at 2nd species:

http://www.noteflight.com/scores/vi...eef42d10a8f47f4

Are the P8s in measure 2 and 3 hidden perfect intervals?
And I must admit I'm not really pleased by the A-C-A-C in measure 6 and 7, but I'm struggling to find another way.
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Old 07-23-2012, 09:06 PM   #63
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Hey guys, sorry to be a pain, but I've just stumbled on this thread, and had a go at at the first species... I know you've moved on already but wondered if you'd have a look at mine? I'm really new to this stuff, and I'm a bit of a theory noob, but I'm keen to learn as much as I can, so I gave it a go.

http://www.noteflight.com/scores/vi...f398f96bddba1f3

As I said I'm new to this, so don't be too hard on me :P

Thanks
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Old 07-23-2012, 10:05 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EmilGD
Aight, found a solution to the jump. But here is my brand new attempt at 2nd species:

http://www.noteflight.com/scores/vi...eef42d10a8f47f4

Are the P8s in measure 2 and 3 hidden perfect intervals?
And I must admit I'm not really pleased by the A-C-A-C in measure 6 and 7, but I'm struggling to find another way.


make it public, and i can give you feedback on your second species.

what was your solution to the first species?

Ryhee, measure 3 to measure 4, your counterpoint jumps down a m7. no good on that. your counterpoint as a whole tends to jump around -- keep it more stepwise. use skips more tastefully. don't not use skips, but don't overuse them. and when you do use a skip, it's advisable to follow it with a step (occasionally a skip) in the opposite direction to cover the skipped ground. and try to think in contrary motion as much as possible.
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Old 07-23-2012, 10:12 PM   #65
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Ok thanks, missed that m7. Having another listen I can see what you mean about it jumping around too much. I'll see if I can fix it up when I get a chance, thanks

Edit: Ok I've had another go at it, changed some stuff around. I focused a lot more on contrary motion, and it isn't jumping around as much.
http://www.noteflight.com/scores/vi...f398f96bddba1f3
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Old 07-24-2012, 01:10 AM   #66
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Here's my attempt at first species: http://www.noteflight.com/scores/vi...a9c644e029dbde2

Been a while since I've written counterpoint, but I still remember some of Fux's book, I think...
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Old 07-24-2012, 01:14 AM   #67
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I decided to take another shot at second species counterpoint, and I actually had a lot of fun with this one. I honestly like the way it sounds. Please alert me to any mistakes!

http://www.noteflight.com/scores/vi...4492f2d2a2006c6
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Old 07-24-2012, 05:34 AM   #68
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Oooops.
Here's the now shared 2nd: http://www.noteflight.com/scores/vi...eef42d10a8f47f4

And my solution to the M7 jump in my 1st was to raise the B to an F, making it a M6 interval in the 4th measure: http://www.noteflight.com/scores/vi...effbc5e011d9143
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Old 07-24-2012, 06:34 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AeolianWolf
warning: to those who participate in this thread, modes WILL BE INVOLVED. in fact, the first cantus firmus i've chosen for first species counterpoint is actually in the dorian mode, and has been harmonized as such.
if you don't mind me asking, why are these modes being used? In ancient modal counterpoint, an entirely different set of modes were used than the 7 we're familiar with today, and in modern tonal and post-tonal counterpoint, modes ended up practically out of use.

Last edited by TMVATDI : 07-24-2012 at 06:36 AM.
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Old 07-24-2012, 07:00 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by TMVATDI
if you don't mind me asking, why are these modes being used? In ancient modal counterpoint, an entirely different set of modes were used than the 7 we're familiar with today, and in modern tonal and post-tonal counterpoint, modes ended up practically out of use.


Because the type of music which used these principles was modal (ancient music is something entirely different, I'm guessing you mean Medieval).

And the modes were exactly the same. There were just other factors that went into modality.

Plainchant, which I'm guessing you're referring to adhered to the following principles.

Each mode existed in two forms, and authentic form, and a plagal form. The plagal form was always a fifth above or a 4th below the authentic form. So the Authentic form of Dorian therefore is D-D, whilst it;s plagal form is A-A. Plagal modes were shown by the prefix Hypo (Hypodorian, Hypolydian etc).

The first note of each mode (including hypo) was called the final (not tonic). A note of secondary importance was called the dominant or tenor, tenor meaning 'to hold' in latin. Tenor and Dominant notes were not the same in authentic and plagal forms of the same mode, nor were they the same intervallic distance from the final.

The two modal forms, finals and tenors weren't the only thing to qualify something as being in a mode. Each mode was characterized by particular melodic patterns, outlines and shapes. These shapes formed the main skeleton of a plainchant, and were used in different orders and filled in using passing notes.

Plainchant modes are not the same as scales, a mode is characterized by a set of pitches and complex melodic patterns.

Often, modal melodies didn't use all the notes present in the mode, even ones distinguishing them from other modes . A plainchant can be in D dorian without even using the notes E or B.
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Old 07-24-2012, 07:12 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by griffRG7321
Because the type of music which used these principles was modal (ancient music is something entirely different, I'm guessing you mean Medieval).

And the modes were exactly the same. There were just other factors that went into modality.

Plainchant, which I'm guessing you're referring to adhered to the following principles.

Each mode existed in two forms, and authentic form, and a plagal form. The plagal form was always a fifth above or a 4th below the authentic form. So the Authentic form of Dorian therefore is D-D, whilst it;s plagal form is A-A. Plagal modes were shown by the prefix Hypo (Hypodorian, Hypolydian etc).

The first note of each mode (including hypo) was called the final (not tonic). A note of secondary importance was called the dominant or tenor, tenor meaning 'to hold' in latin. Tenor and Dominant notes were not the same in authentic and plagal forms of the same mode, nor were they the same intervallic distance from the final.

The two modal forms, finals and tenors weren't the only thing to qualify something as being in a mode. Each mode was characterized by particular melodic patterns, outlines and shapes. These shapes formed the main skeleton of a plainchant, and were used in different orders and filled in using passing notes.

Plainchant modes are not the same as scales, a mode is characterized by a set of pitches and complex melodic patterns.

Often, modal melodies didn't use all the notes present in the mode, even ones distinguishing them from other modes . A plainchant can be in D dorian without even using the notes E or B.

Huh. So the basic idea of a dominant/tonic relationship existed even back then. How did it begin to evolve into the tonal system?
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Old 07-24-2012, 07:36 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by TheHydra
Huh. So the basic idea of a dominant/tonic relationship existed even back then. How did it begin to evolve into the tonal system?


Not really. Dominant/tonic is a very specific relationship, and when I was taught this, my tutor was very picky about us using calling the secondary tone either the cofinal or the tenor, as dominant has very specific connotations. It's not so much the idea of a dominant/tonic relationship, so much as basic tension/release, which is really a feature of all music, no matter how hard anyone tries to argue it's not - it is simply that tension will appear in different guises according to the nature of what you're listening to.

Short answer to your question: through the introduction of accidentals, particularly the sharpened leading-tone. Chromaticism essentially destroys any sense of modality, by removing the specific intervallic properties of a particular mode. I'm sure griff has much more to say on this than I do, though.
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Old 07-24-2012, 11:00 PM   #73
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OKKK so I finished my arrangement of Bach's opening from Partita 2 for solo violin. It's originally a single line piece and I just broke it up and fleshed it out into 3-part counterpoint.



Here's the original violin version for comparison:


Let me know what you guys think
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Old 07-24-2012, 11:08 PM   #74
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Loved it Xiaoxi! Just great!

Best,

Sean
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Old 07-25-2012, 12:47 AM   #75
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I decided to take a shot at making second species counterpoint that sounded bluesy, but it's a lot harder than it sounds.

http://www.noteflight.com/scores/vi...470d4108130892e

It was worth a shot.
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Old 07-25-2012, 02:44 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Sean0913
Loved it Xiaoxi! Just great!

Best,

Sean

Thanks Sean!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHydra
I decided to take a shot at making second species counterpoint that sounded bluesy, but it's a lot harder than it sounds.

http://www.noteflight.com/scores/vi...470d4108130892e

It was worth a shot.

lol not bad. I see you going for the m3/M3 feel, which is a crucial part of the blues language. You should expand on it though...there are other factors that makes something "blues".

You just reminded me of this thing I did a few years ago. I just unearthed it and wow, wtf was I thinking?
http://soundcloud.com/xwanhosting/blues-for-bach
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Old 07-25-2012, 02:48 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by griffRG7321
Because the type of music which used these principles was modal (ancient music is something entirely different, I'm guessing you mean Medieval).

And the modes were exactly the same. There were just other factors that went into modality.

Plainchant, which I'm guessing you're referring to adhered to the following principles.

Each mode existed in two forms, and authentic form, and a plagal form. The plagal form was always a fifth above or a 4th below the authentic form. So the Authentic form of Dorian therefore is D-D, whilst it;s plagal form is A-A. Plagal modes were shown by the prefix Hypo (Hypodorian, Hypolydian etc).

The first note of each mode (including hypo) was called the final (not tonic). A note of secondary importance was called the dominant or tenor, tenor meaning 'to hold' in latin. Tenor and Dominant notes were not the same in authentic and plagal forms of the same mode, nor were they the same intervallic distance from the final.

The two modal forms, finals and tenors weren't the only thing to qualify something as being in a mode. Each mode was characterized by particular melodic patterns, outlines and shapes. These shapes formed the main skeleton of a plainchant, and were used in different orders and filled in using passing notes.

Plainchant modes are not the same as scales, a mode is characterized by a set of pitches and complex melodic patterns.

Often, modal melodies didn't use all the notes present in the mode, even ones distinguishing them from other modes . A plainchant can be in D dorian without even using the notes E or B.

I just got learned. Thank you!

Last edited by TMVATDI : 07-25-2012 at 02:49 AM.
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Old 07-25-2012, 03:08 AM   #78
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lol not bad. I see you going for the m3/M3 feel, which is a crucial part of the blues language. You should expand on it though...there are other factors that makes something "blues".

You just reminded me of this thing I did a few years ago. I just unearthed it and wow, wtf was I thinking?
http://soundcloud.com/xwanhosting/blues-for-bach

Yeah, that contrast was intentional. This was more of a test to see if it was feasible. I might expand on it later tonight, as I've been enjoying writing counterpoint.

I have this weird goal in my head to someday write a "spiritual sequel" to The Well Tempered Clavier, where I would write a bunch of fugues in different genres, to demonstrate how the art of fugue can be applied anywhere. I have my heart set on someday making a punk fugue for bass guitar, distorted electric guitar, and shouted vocals.
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Old 07-27-2012, 03:23 AM   #79
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So I tried making bluesy counterpoint again, and I struggled with it for a while until I gave up and realized it sounded better if I just did more normal counterpoint. I think this sounds pretty good: http://www.noteflight.com/scores/vi...0f7af52eab575fe
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Old 07-27-2012, 03:31 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by TheHydra
So I tried making bluesy counterpoint again, and I struggled with it for a while until I gave up and realized it sounded better if I just did more normal counterpoint. I think this sounds pretty good: http://www.noteflight.com/scores/vi...0f7af52eab575fe

Try making more jazz inspired counterpoint and add in blue notes. I've heard lots of jazzy counterpoint, but I've never heard bluesy counterpoint without a hint of jazz. That's just the nature of the styles; there's a lot more going on in jazz melody than blues melody.
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