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Old 07-27-2012, 03:35 AM   #81
TheHydra
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I don't think species counterpoint really fits in with the jazz/blues styles. To do jazz counterpoint, I'd need to have a lot of chromatic movements, and I don't think movements of a m2 are allowed in species counterpoint except at the end. Unless I've missed something.

Last edited by TheHydra : 07-27-2012 at 03:41 AM.
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Old 07-27-2012, 07:37 AM   #82
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Sure. But that doesn't mean it's not worth learning: some of the principles that you learn still hold true no matter how much chromaticism you add. Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms are all composers that use a lot of chromaticism in their writing, but you can see that they'd drawn a lot from studying species counterpoint.

It's like essay writing at school: most of us will never have to write an essay or an article in our lives, but some of the skills are transferable to say, letter writing or whatever.
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Old 07-27-2012, 07:56 AM   #83
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Species counterpoint is really the study of melody. Sure, the 'counterpoint' aspect is import, but the really important thing to take away from it, for most people, is the melodic aspects. It's conservative melody, but ultimately tonal melody is virtually the same from era to era and style to style. The fluff changes, but the attributes of a good quality melody (i.e. one that we find pleasing) is really the same.
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Old 07-27-2012, 07:57 AM   #84
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Oh no, I know that. It's just that I wanted to see if I could write bluesy species counterpoint and I've come to the conclusion that it's borderline impossible at this point. I still fully intend to follow through with species study.
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Old 07-27-2012, 02:55 PM   #85
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So... 3rd species anyone?
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Old 07-27-2012, 03:01 PM   #86
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So... 3rd species anyone?


This Olympic games shizz is pretty boring, so yes.
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Old 07-27-2012, 03:35 PM   #87
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okay, then, third species. for those of you who don't know, 3rd species is 4 notes against one (so four quarter notes against a whole note).

rules:
  • all rules from first and second species apply.
  • the counterpoint may begin either on a quarter note or a quarter rest - in either case, the first note must be a perfect consonance.
  • the first quarter note in a measure is always consonant, the third is usually consonant, and the second and fourth may be dissonant. the third may be dissonant if the first, second, and fourth are consonant. if the first and fourth note in a measure are a P4 apart, the second and third may be dissonant, provided they are moving in stepwise motion, creating a "double passing tone".
  • the types of embellishment permitted are: passing tones, neighbor tones, the nota cambiata*, and embellishing tones (consonant skips).

*illustration of a nota cambiata - http://www.listeningarts.com/music/...cies/3rdex9.mov

questions, as always, are welcome.

here's my contribution: http://www.noteflight.com/scores/vi...4abea4dc93098f8
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Old 07-27-2012, 04:13 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by National_Anthem
Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms are all composers that use a lot of chromaticism in their writing, but you can see that they'd drawn a lot from studying species counterpoint.

How do you know that?
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Old 07-28-2012, 07:12 PM   #89
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Bit late on this, plowed through all three species today because I didn't have anything else to do. I don't think I did too badly

First Species:

http://www.noteflight.com/scores/vi...eb15d9b96912818

Second Species:

http://www.noteflight.com/scores/vi...bfc464341cd3e2d

Third Species:

http://www.noteflight.com/scores/vi...b40cbde0b76b8d6
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Old 07-28-2012, 07:27 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nietsche
Bit late on this, plowed through all three species today because I didn't have anything else to do. I don't think I did too badly

First Species:

http://www.noteflight.com/scores/vi...eb15d9b96912818

Second Species:

http://www.noteflight.com/scores/vi...bfc464341cd3e2d

Third Species:

http://www.noteflight.com/scores/vi...b40cbde0b76b8d6


first species was good.

second species:
- measure 4, note 2 - you're leaping into a dissonance. no good. if you change it to an E instead, you'll be good.
- try to think more in contrary motion when possible.

third species didn't have anything wrong with it per se, but try to find some solutions that are more melodic and sound more pleasant. it kind of sounds like your line is just meandering -- especially in the least few measures, where you ascend stepwise, then descend stepwise, then ascend stepwise again to the tonic. remember that this is species counterpoint - treatment is more like melodies of the renaissance motets than a bach composition. by that i mean that sequences tend to be avoided rather than welcomed. don't think in terms of sequences (which, i'll admit, was the most difficult thing i had to learn to do when i studied counterpoint, because i'm such a sucker for bach's sequenced motives).
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Old 07-28-2012, 07:43 PM   #91
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Thanks for the comments AW. I've fixed the faulty note in m4 of the second species. I might try another having another swing at second and third species tomorrow, keeping what you've said in mind.
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Last edited by Nietsche : 07-28-2012 at 07:47 PM. Reason: oh lordy that was some bad punctuation
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Old 07-28-2012, 08:16 PM   #92
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For the third species, you leap from and to a dissonance several times. Measure 2 beat 3-4, measure three beat 2-3, measure 4 beat 3-4, and measure 5 beat 3-4. Also generally what AW said about the melody. It has a tendency to meander a bit, although it's hard not to meander in third species.

Third species is definitely the hardest, so it only gets better from here on out.
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Old 07-28-2012, 08:28 PM   #93
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There can't be a problem with measure three because all the motion in that measure is stepwise, I think you meant measure four beats 2-3, but I see what you mean, though in my partial defence all the offending 'dissonances' are actually fourths.
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Old 07-28-2012, 08:31 PM   #94
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Yeah, sorry, 2, 4 and 5. You have two leaps in measure 4, but one is a cambiata so it's legit. 4ths are dissonances the same as seconds and sevenths.
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Old 07-28-2012, 11:00 PM   #95
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I hated doing this in college, but I always found 3rd species the easiest because it was the most musical
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Old 07-28-2012, 11:19 PM   #96
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It's the hardest because it's the least musical.
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Old 07-29-2012, 05:51 AM   #97
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I'm dripping wet for 4th species...

Chains of 7-6 suspensions coming in.
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Old 07-29-2012, 09:04 AM   #98
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Yeah, sorry, 2, 4 and 5. You have two leaps in measure 4, but one is a cambiata so it's legit. 4ths are dissonances the same as seconds and sevenths.


Only according to your stupid Renaissance-era rules

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Old 07-29-2012, 09:31 AM   #99
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http://www.noteflight.com/scores/vi...29895ea1f2a3e57

Here's my third species. I couldn't figure out how to make Measurement 8 sound good, but after about 5 minutes of fiddling with it alone I settled on the solution given. Opinions?
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Old 07-29-2012, 10:32 AM   #100
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I feel like a lot of your measures sound very self-contained because you have a lot of leaps between measures, so the melody doesn't flow very well. Also you have parallel octaves measures 8-9.

I made some edits/completely re-wrote it here: http://www.noteflight.com/scores/vi...e5b4c99351988d0
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