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Old 07-27-2012, 04:39 AM   #1
RedDeath9
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Spirals, pt. 1 (GP5+4+MIDI), C4C!

Not really sure what to say, partly because I never know what to say, and it's also 1:28 AM, and I'm tired and hungry.

I started working on this in December. I created a ton of riffs for it, trying to structure it perfectly, and today, I decided to split the song in two. Something about having all those extra ideas tacked on at the end of the GP file constricted me, as if everything I was doing was just an attempt to connect all of those ideas. It crippled my creativity! - assuming I had any in the first place.

Part 1 is an intentional mish-mash of ideas, as it's an introduction of sorts to the "situation." Part 2, which is severely unfinished, will serve to tie everything together. In all honesty, the whole reason I split the files was so I could say I finished SOMETHING. I have terrible follow-through. Who knows when part 2 will be done...

Anyways, I don't know what's going on anymore. Listen, enjoy, C4C
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Old 07-27-2012, 12:03 PM   #2
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10/10
Favourite bars: 55 - 60.
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Silly Song

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Old 07-27-2012, 08:58 PM   #3
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I never even heard major 7ths being used in a musical fashion: my mind is blown. Will give this a more detailed crit later.

EDIT: The solos. Those goddamn solos.
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Old 07-28-2012, 08:55 AM   #4
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10/10
Favourite bars: 55 - 60.


I have nothing to add, except.. how did you ever come up with this, Red?
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Old 07-28-2012, 11:04 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Erra93
I have nothing to add, except.. how did you ever come up with this, Red?


Allow me to barge in, but I'll tell you. Most of it is just playing with random stuff on Guitar Pro until it sounds good. I've been working on stuff with Red for like a year now, and we both have a pretty similar approach. Also, shameless plug time, we're almost finished with a 10+ minute prog metal epic. So, keep your eyes peeled for that.

Gonna slink back into the shadows now.

Also, this song sucks, Red.

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Old 07-28-2012, 09:22 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Erra93
I have nothing to add, except.. how did you ever come up with this, Red?


Honestly, I didn't realize this was something that warranted such a question Well, what Tarbosh said is basically correct. But if you want me to go in detail...

The first two bars were written literally years ago, so I can't recall much about that. For the tech intro, I wanted something both melodic and dissonant, kind of like a melodic version of Gorguts, accidentals everywhere, technical as hell, but still consonant. As a result, pretty much everything I write will turn out jazzy. That shows in most of the riffs I write...

Bar 11 is just my standard go-to riff which I decided to do a bass solo over But those first two chord progressions - at 3 and 11 - are used throughout the entire song. For instance, bar 11 and 27 are those same chord progressions, just edited a little bit. For bar 19, I wanted a Spawn of Possession-like sound (hence the random 16th note runs). And for bar 27, the orchestral bit... Honestly, man, it's just me going, "Hey, this idea could sound good!," and then editing it until it sounds perfect.

However, for something like bar 47 - At that point, I wanted to tone down the intensity, have a "verse"-like thing, because a lot of my WIP songs suffer from being too intense all the time. And my idea of "calm" is bar 47, apparently. I actually wrote bar 61 first, and then decided to cut out the lead and place it a little earlier, so that the lead would come in on the next iteration of the riff - which is something I do a lot to build intensity, and I'm not sure if it works. It's just another one of my go-to things.

Bar 69 was all essentially written by controlled stream of consciousness, or... me writing ascending and descending chords that I thought would sound decent, and then editing them to perfect them.

Once again, I honestly didn't think this song was... that great. I suppose it seems much more impressive to you, when you listen to the entire thing at once, but what Tarbosh said was right. I basically flounder about until I find something that sounds good and that flows well and ties in with previous themes. For example, I had no idea where I was going with the post-acoustic thing at 83. I randomly decided that it's building up intensity made it fit for a pre-solo type thing, and so I made a bunch of solos after it Once the first one was done, I realized that it sounded like THE climax of the song, so I ended it quickly, and reserved all the rest of the stuff I had for part 2. That's another thing - All that I have for part 2, I initially wrote DIRECTLY after a riff in part 1, but then decided that it didn't fit.

Not only that, but like 10% of what I write is luck. I'll hear guitar pro do something funny, and then I'll be like "holy shit that was awesome!" For instance, that's how I got the idea for bar 154.

I think I reason why this song sounds coherent, when all the parts are so different, is the reuse of chord progressions. For example, bars 11, 27, 35, 83, 109, 121, and 141 are all based off of the same chord progression And bars 3, 19, and 117, and 125 are all based off of the same one as well.

I'd be surprised if anyone actually reads all of that Thanks for your comments guys, I am sufficiently flattered. I wasn't exactly expecting that kind of response I'm glad you enjoyed it.

This song sucks, eh?^ Thanks, Tarbosh, for keeping my ego in check. However, the same cannot be said about our collab. Dat shit cray.
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Old 07-29-2012, 02:16 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedDeath9
Honestly, I didn't realize this was something that warranted such a question Well, what Tarbosh said is basically correct. But if you want me to go in detail...

The first two bars were written literally years ago, so I can't recall much about that. For the tech intro, I wanted something both melodic and dissonant, kind of like a melodic version of Gorguts, accidentals everywhere, technical as hell, but still consonant. As a result, pretty much everything I write will turn out jazzy. That shows in most of the riffs I write...

Bar 11 is just my standard go-to riff which I decided to do a bass solo over But those first two chord progressions - at 3 and 11 - are used throughout the entire song. For instance, bar 19 and 27 are those same chord progressions, just edited a little bit. For bar 19, I wanted a Spawn of Possession-like sound (hence the random 16th note runs). And for bar 27, the orchestral bit... Honestly, man, it's just me going, "Hey, this idea could sound good!," and then editing it until it sounds perfect.

However, for something like bar 47 - At that point, I wanted to tone down the intensity, have a "verse"-like thing, because a lot of my WIP songs suffer from being too intense all the time. And my idea of "calm" is bar 47, apparently. I actually wrote bar 61 first, and then decided to cut out the lead and place it a little earlier, so that the lead would come in on the next iteration of the riff - which is something I do a lot to build intensity, and I'm not sure if it works. It's just another one of my go-to things.

Bar 69 was all essentially written by controlled stream of consciousness, or... me writing ascending and descending chords that I thought would sound decent, and then editing them to perfect them.

Once again, I honestly didn't think this song was... that great. I suppose it seems much more impressive to you, when you listen to the entire thing at once, but what Tarbosh said was right. I basically flounder about until I find something that sounds good and that flows well and ties in with previous themes. For example, I had no idea where I was going with the post-acoustic thing at 83. I randomly decided that it's building up intensity made it fit for a pre-solo type thing, and so I made a bunch of solos after it Once the first one was done, I realized that it sounded like THE climax of the song, so I ended it quickly, and reserved all the rest of the stuff I had for part 2. That's another thing - All that I have for part 2, I initially wrote DIRECTLY after a riff in part 1, but then decided that it didn't fit.

Not only that, but like 10% of what I write is luck. I'll hear guitar pro do something funny, and then I'll be like "holy shit that was awesome!" For instance, that's how I got the idea for bar 154.

I think I reason why this song sounds coherent, when all the parts are so different, is the reuse of chord progressions. For example, bars 11, 27, 35, 83, 109, 121, and 141 are all based off of the same chord progression And bars 3, 19, and 117, and 125 are all based off of the same one as well.

I'd be surprised if anyone actually reads all of that Thanks for your comments guys, I am sufficiently flattered. I wasn't exactly expecting that kind of response I'm glad you enjoyed it.

This song sucks, eh?^ Thanks, Tarbosh, for keeping my ego in check. However, the same cannot be said about our collab. Dat shit cray.


Wow, thanks for that huge in-depth explanation, haha
I'm going to take a lot of this into consideration when writing my songs from now on, thank you once again
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Old 07-29-2012, 08:43 PM   #8
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Wat.

Are you telling me you write this stuff with no theory involved?



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Old 07-29-2012, 09:44 PM   #9
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Oh, no, there's theory of course. I have an idea of what the root note is, and that I'm primarily in a minor key. I also sort of know how every different note will sound, in a minor key - For example, like... major 7th interval sounds "evil" But I don't really think about it consciously while I do it - I just write what sounds good, by trying to write what I hear in my head. But yeah, beyond knowing the tonic and knowing how different notes will sound, I don't really know what I'm doing, theoretically. I don't know what most of the chords I use are called. Hell, I didn't even know if I used the term "Major 7th interval" correctly So, for me, I guess theory is a very rough guideline, rarely ever consciously used - I mostly just go by ear.

God damn it, stop asking me questions that have long answers
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Old 07-29-2012, 09:49 PM   #10
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^ I'd gathered the complete opposite from both RedDeath's post and his other pieces. I know that he's actively listened to many revered composers, and has both integrated and expanded upon elements of their work in his own compositions, so a strong recognition of repertoire stems from that. I'd say though, that rather than consciously thinking in terms of theoretical devices when writing, the process is more passive because of that very developed understanding.

RedDeath9 - I'd love to pass a critique on to this, but is there anything in particular that you'd like feedback on?



EDIT: Well, guess I'm wrong.
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Old 07-29-2012, 10:14 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by juckfush
^ I'd gathered the complete opposite from both RedDeath's post and his other pieces. I know that he's actively listened to many revered composers, and has both integrated and expanded upon elements of their work in his own compositions, so a strong recognition of repertoire stems from that. I'd say though, that rather than consciously thinking in terms of theoretical devices when writing, the process is more passive because of that very developed understanding.

RedDeath9 - I'd love to pass a critique on to this, but is there anything in particular that you'd like feedback on?



EDIT: Well, guess I'm wrong.


Actually, aren't you right? I'd say you explained it more clearly than I did. You're right in that I don't consciously think in terms of theoretical devices, and I suppose you could say I have a developed understanding, but... I really don't know much theory besides the basic stuff.

Hm... Well, my main concern was that, as a standalone song, it wouldn't do so well. I guess that has been addressed by the fact that there'll be a second part to it... The question I always ask myself while writing is "Does this song structure make sense, and is it effective?" I really have no idea what I'm doing, when it comes to structuring songs. Standing Before the Precipice is my idea of a perfectly structured song, and I have no idea how Tarbosh and I did it

So... Does this song build and release tension in an effective way? Is it cohesive, as a single entity? Thanks man
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Old 07-30-2012, 04:01 AM   #12
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Haha, I suppose. I was still very much under the impression that you had some formal education in theory, given that a lot of your voicings and nuanced sub-modulations meld together so effortlessly. One of my favourite qualities about your compositions - and Tarbosh's - is how fluently you weave in-and-out of altered tonalities, to make a super-tonality of sorts rather than a strict major or minor feel.

As for tension and release, I'd say you've got nothing to concern yourself with. The themes flow effortlessly to form a stand-alone piece throughout, and there's a nice balance of unities through repeated themes, albeit varied through alternate developments; like you've said yourself, the binding factor is that the composition itself is strongly based on one focal thematic idea.
Bars 39 to 54 seem to give the impression that adding a vocal layer wouldn't be intrusive, and is possibly the only section I'd even consider adding them into. The instrumental themes as-are stand alone very strongly, particularly once the compound feel is swapped out for a 4/4 at the end (which, by the way, came as a much appreciated surprise).

As for tension-and-release specifically, I'd say it's been pulled off very effectively. Your busiest/heaviest theme is right at the start, and from there, the 6/4 section weaves itself through various dynamics (with regard to rhythmic feels, performance techniques, fills, and so on) to offer a consistent development. This consistent development does build tension in its own right, and is a good example that tension doesn't have to be created through business - you've formulated tension by developing one theme, and leaving the listener anticipating what changes it may develop, or what it may change into.
Introducing the juxtaposing timbre offered by brass was a top choice for your interlude, as was reprising your initial distorted themes.
The big stand-out in transitioning was into the chordal work t 101, which sounded much more controlled and less dense, in a respect. It feels like there's more breathing room once the consistency of a chord progression crops up, as opposed to the previous multi-tracked single-note lines.

I'd imagine this segueing from a short, 2-minute or so piece constructed in a sort of Swamp-meets-Circles vein, featuring greater spaces between successive chords and other harmonic content within individual voices, but with a mingling of those simpler lines amongst multiple voices to create a very wide soundscape. It might even be worth writing ''softer'' variations of themes currently in Spirals, amalgamated with subtle odes to the other pieces, as a means of binding them together.
This isn't to say that the themes currently explored in Spirals are too jarring upon their initial introduction, because I can honestly say that I'm amazed by how seamlessly they flow, and never sound cluttered or erratic so much as interesting or elaborate. My thought's more with the idea that it's often quite a treat to hear a section that's appeared in another piece, and feel that amazing sense of familiarity without actually recognising, at first, that they do share parallels. If you went down the route I've attempted to describe, subtlety would be the key - you wouldn't want the listener to hear a theme in Spirals after this interlude-esque piece and immediately recognise it as a reprise.

As for critiquing the actual themes themselves... I've got no qualms. Everything's very much idiomatic for each instrument, there's a definite personality, and the piece evolves fluently.

I hope that this has helped somewhat, given that I've essentially noticed things you'd down, pointed a finger, and said ''look! You did that!''.

PS: Would you mind if I have a hand at learning this, and possibly upload a cover?
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Old 07-30-2012, 05:14 AM   #13
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Oh shit. I don't mind at all. In fact, I'm flattered that you'd even want to learn it. Keep in mind though, this wasn't written with playability in mind Some of the chords in the clean section look impossible...

Quote:
Originally Posted by juckfush
Haha, I suppose. I was still very much under the impression that you had some formal education in theory, given that a lot of your voicings and nuanced sub-modulations meld together so effortlessly. One of my favourite qualities about your compositions - and Tarbosh's - is how fluently you weave in-and-out of altered tonalities, to make a super-tonality of sorts rather than a strict major or minor feel.


I think I'm beginning to have a vague idea of what you're implying. That stuff you just said - I think I like doing it. I would consider it one of my... characteristics, as a writer. So thanks!

Quote:
As for tension and release, I'd say you've got nothing to concern yourself with. The themes flow effortlessly to form a stand-alone piece throughout, and there's a nice balance of unities through repeated themes, albeit varied through alternate developments; like you've said yourself, the binding factor is that the composition itself is strongly based on one focal thematic idea.


Alright, cool. I mean, it sounded fine to me as well, but I've listened to this song so many times that my perception is probably skewed.

Quote:
Bars 39 to 54 seem to give the impression that adding a vocal layer wouldn't be intrusive, and is possibly the only section I'd even consider adding them into. The instrumental themes as-are stand alone very strongly, particularly once the compound feel is swapped out for a 4/4 at the end (which, by the way, came as a much appreciated surprise).


That's actually exactly what I wrote bars 39-54 for

Quote:
I'd imagine this segueing from a short, 2-minute or so piece constructed in a sort of Swamp-meets-Circles vein, featuring greater spaces between successive chords and other harmonic content within individual voices, but with a mingling of those simpler lines amongst multiple voices to create a very wide soundscape. It might even be worth writing ''softer'' variations of themes currently in Spirals, amalgamated with subtle odes to the other pieces, as a means of binding them together.
This isn't to say that the themes currently explored in Spirals are too jarring upon their initial introduction, because I can honestly say that I'm amazed by how seamlessly they flow, and never sound cluttered or erratic so much as interesting or elaborate. My thought's more with the idea that it's often quite a treat to hear a section that's appeared in another piece, and feel that amazing sense of familiarity without actually recognising, at first, that they do share parallels. If you went down the route I've attempted to describe, subtlety would be the key - you wouldn't want the listener to hear a theme in Spirals after this interlude-esque piece and immediately recognise it as a reprise.


That's a very cool idea. I'll think about trying it out. I'm also flattered that you remember Swamp and Circles, or had the motivation to look back at them. Thanks for the comments though, really. Your walls of text are always fun to read, mostly because I love hearing about what I did right. Sometimes I think you're too nice/forgiving, though. One day, I'd like to see you pull a "Burning_Angel" and just DESTROY someone.

Anything you want me to crit? Chances are I've already listened to everything you've posted
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Old 07-30-2012, 06:35 AM   #14
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Actually... I have been listening back to your other compositions over the past few days, haha. I hadn't heard Circles prior to then, but it's certainly verified any compulsion I had to write more in a jazz fusion idiom, and Swamp was still fairly clear in my head.

And mate, I don't think the harsh critiques are for me, haha. I have spoken up in the Musician's Talk or Guitar Techniques forums when an idea's cropped up that I disagree with, or if the threadstarter presents a particularly glaring complication. Still though, I'd much rather be constructive through offering a level-headed and, dare I say, nurturing perspective than one that denounces the thread-starter of tears down what they've done.
I think there's much more merit in a friendly analysis than a blatant criticism, even if both point out the same faults. But at this point, I'm rambling, haha.

I'm fine without the return this time around, mate. I've got a pair of theoretically-conceptual compositions in the works, and both a chamber and long-winded prog piece that I might upload some time soon (the latter two were written for my last semester of Uni), so I'll pass a line your way once they're up, if ever.

To wrap up, I'm still very much enjoying what you're doing, and I'll be keeping an eye out for your collaboration with Tarbosh. Standing Before The Precipice was ridiculous.

Keep on writing, and my apologies for the thread hijack.

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Old 07-30-2012, 11:00 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juckfush
One of my favourite qualities about your compositions - and Tarbosh's - is how fluently you weave in-and-out of altered tonalities, to make a super-tonality of sorts rather than a strict major or minor feel.

...


To wrap up, I'm still very much enjoying what you're doing, and I'll be keeping an eye out for your collaboration with Tarbosh. Standing Before The Precipice was ridiculous.



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Old 07-30-2012, 11:26 AM   #16
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1. I have really nothing to say about this piece. I've heard nothing like this, and it's really goddamn good, even if a bit out there for me. Furthermore, I think I want to try writing some stuff sorta how you go about it, Red. Seems it might help my creativity, which has hit a dry spell right now.

2. Someone's gotta not give a shit what people think 'round here and just destroy the shit he doesn't like. I dont like pandering in this sort of thing, it's not helpful.
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Old 07-30-2012, 08:36 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juckfush
I think there's much more merit in a friendly analysis than a blatant criticism, even if both point out the same faults. But at this point, I'm rambling, haha.


Quote:
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2. Someone's gotta not give a shit what people think 'round here and just destroy the shit he doesn't like. I dont like pandering in this sort of thing, it's not helpful.


Talk about character foils

I'm glad you enjoyed it, Burning_Angel. I half-expected your reply to start with "As usual I hate most of what goes on in this forum." Best beginning of a crit ever.
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Old 07-30-2012, 10:29 PM   #18
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Seriously though, I should ammend my comment - not out there, rather, it's more busy/chaotic than a lot of stuff I enjoy.

And it's just weird, there's not much middle ground here for me. Lately the board is so infused with psuedo-/faux-prog djentcore unoriginality [yes I made that up off the top of my head, pretty accurate though I find] that it takes up a lot of space. And then there's a few dudes from the old-guard that post songs once in a while like you or me or whoever, and JazzDeath, and a handful of others. And those people usually write stuff I enjoy thoroughly.
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Old 10-21-2012, 09:51 PM   #19
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You really need to record your stuff. I would buy this.
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Old 11-01-2012, 06:43 PM   #20
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This. Is. Fucking. Good.

It seems you and I write in a similar way, your's is much better than what I do though.
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