Go Back   UG Community @ Ultimate-Guitar.Com > Music > Musician Talk
User Name  
Password
Search:

Reply
Old 08-23-2012, 10:24 PM   #1
Unreal T
Registered User
 
Unreal T's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Baroque and Classical music

I have become interested in a lot of baroque and classical music. How does one make two melodies work together such as in a lot of bach's fugues. I hear multiple melodies but is there some sort of method that is used to add another melody that complements a different melody.

I am so used to playing over static chords and chord changes that I find it quite challenging to compose one melody and add another independent one that works very well together.
Unreal T is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2012, 10:56 PM   #2
vampirelazarus
the one with four strings
 
vampirelazarus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Here
Look into counterpoint. Species counterpoint, I think. 1st species counterpoint to get started.
__________________
Understand nothing, in order to learn everything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by liampje
I can write a coherent tune ... But 3/4? I play rock, not polka.
vampirelazarus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2012, 11:51 PM   #3
Hail
kill both bass players
 
Hail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Dallas
Quote:
Originally Posted by vampirelazarus
Look into counterpoint. Species counterpoint, I think. 1st species counterpoint to get started.


species probably won't help a lot, esp first species (whole on whole) though they're definitely very worth getting into

TS, check this out
Hail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2012, 12:00 AM   #4
vampirelazarus
the one with four strings
 
vampirelazarus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Here
Meant it more as a place to begin learning. If I remember, species is incredibly strict, but a great place to begin learning how to create contrapuntal music.


Kind of like scales.
__________________
Understand nothing, in order to learn everything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by liampje
I can write a coherent tune ... But 3/4? I play rock, not polka.
vampirelazarus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2012, 12:04 AM   #5
Xiaoxi
Registered Luser
 
Xiaoxi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: libtard Maryland
It's all about counterpoint. Really, the foundation of classical music is counterpoint. Harmony such as the static chords you're talking about really doesn't exist by itself. It's all compiled by different lines (or melodies) that relate to each other, which is how the harmony is formed and keeps moving.

Often times there aren't really multiple melodies. Rather, one melody is transformed and adapted to the different lines. Classical music is all about the development of a single, short idea.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by BjarnedeGraaf
I want to reconcile the violence in your heart
I want to recognise your beauty's not just a mask
I want to exorcise the demons from your past
I want to satisfy the undisclosed desires in your heart

Xiaoxi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2012, 12:11 AM   #6
vampirelazarus
the one with four strings
 
vampirelazarus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Here
^Listen to him over me
__________________
Understand nothing, in order to learn everything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by liampje
I can write a coherent tune ... But 3/4? I play rock, not polka.
vampirelazarus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2012, 12:15 AM   #7
Hail
kill both bass players
 
Hail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Dallas
i was mostly referring to specifics vamp, i just doubt he wants to fully immerse himself (because no one wants to here ). species counterpoint is a hell of a skill to develop but i wouldn't go to that before just straight-up studying the music. ofc xiaoxi would be the authority tho

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiaoxi
It's all about counterpoint. Really, the foundation of classical music is counterpoint. Harmony such as the static chords you're talking about really doesn't exist by itself. It's all compiled by different lines (or melodies) that relate to each other, which is how the harmony is formed and keeps moving.

Often times there aren't really multiple melodies. Rather, one melody is transformed and adapted to the different lines. Classical music is all about the development of a single, short idea.


linked it in the melody thread but this is really interesting, not gonna answer TSs question but i really do love that these are up on youtube



Last edited by Hail : 08-24-2012 at 12:18 AM.
Hail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2012, 05:36 AM   #8
Keth
Contrapunctalist
 
Keth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Netherlands
Just like anything else you compose, you should hear it in your head first. I usually start with one part, and then hum/sing another line over it and notate it. Then I repeat that until I like what I have. This will start out slow, but after a while you'll be able to notate the melodies without singing it all the way through.
__________________


Keth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2012, 07:18 AM   #9
Unreal T
Registered User
 
Unreal T's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Ok. And can someone shed some light on arranging? For instance, what if I wanted to play Beethovens 23rd piano sonata on the guitar. When someone says it needs to be arranged for guitar do they mean that they take the most fundamental parts of the piece and make it so it can be played easier on the guitar.

There are a lot of bass and treble parts in a lot of pieces of music...so how would you know which to incorporate when playing it on the guitar? I mean, it is impossible to play it exactly as it was written.
Unreal T is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2012, 09:10 AM   #10
Sleepy__Head
A cornucopia of trivia
 
Sleepy__Head's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Butt****, SY
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unreal T
I have become interested in a lot of baroque and classical music. How does one make two melodies work together such as in a lot of bach's fugues. I hear multiple melodies but is there some sort of method that is used to add another melody that complements a different melody.

I am so used to playing over static chords and chord changes that I find it quite challenging to compose one melody and add another independent one that works very well together.


I've written fugues and although the idea is simple (take a tune & play it, then move it up a 5th & play it, then move it back to the tonic & play it) it's enormously fiddly in practice. It takes a lot of experimentation to begin with, and quite a bit of theory.

My advice would be that if you're determined to do this then get a book, maybe a couple, and do the exercises religiously. Kent Wheeler Kennan's "Counterpoint" gets good reviews, as does Walter Piston's "Counterpoint" so they will probably be a good place to start. (I haven't read either of these. I learned from different books but that was quite a while ago). It's going to take some time before you're ready to write a fugue. Took me a good year's worth of work before I felt ready enough to tackle that chapter. If you have a teacher get them to help you out.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Unreal T
how would you know which to incorporate when playing it on the guitar?


Not necessarily in this order: Reduce the piano score to its basic chords. Work out which bits of the melody you want to keep. Work out what's background, middleground and foreground in the original. Work out where you're going to play the passages on the guitar and how you're going to voice them. Play through your arrangement (or sections of it) to make sure it works.

Honestly? I'd avoid transcribing Beethoven for your first try, and go for Bach. There are very few commercial transcriptions of Beethoven for guitar because it's just very, very difficult to do. Bach's much, much easier.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiaoxi
Classical music is all about the development of a single, short idea.


Unless you're Stravinsky. But he's not Classical classical, more Modern classical so I guess that doesn't count. I'll shut up now.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hail
oh shut up with that /mu/ bullshit. fidget house shouldn't even be a genre, why in the world would it deserve its own subgenres you twat
Sleepy__Head is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2012, 11:20 AM   #11
Unreal T
Registered User
 
Unreal T's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Sounds very time consuming. I think I might just go back to playing pop and rock lol.

But I was hunting around for some bach and came across this and it doesn't seem very hard to arrange to the guitar. I am doing this one now.

http://www.sheetmusic2print.com/Med...Prelude-935.pdf

The main reason I am getting into the Baroque and Classical music is to expand my vocabulary and understanding of note durations and time signatures. So if anyone knows of any pieces that are very good to study please let me know.
Unreal T is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2012, 11:29 AM   #12
British_Steal
UG Member
 
British_Steal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Up here in space Im looking down on you My lasers trace Everything you do
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiaoxi
It's all about counterpoint. Really, the foundation of classical music is counterpoint. Harmony such as the static chords you're talking about really doesn't exist by itself. It's all compiled by different lines (or melodies) that relate to each other, which is how the harmony is formed and keeps moving.

Often times there aren't really multiple melodies. Rather, one melody is transformed and adapted to the different lines. Classical music is all about the development of a single, short idea.


This
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Spoon
Unless you're sure she likes you, telling her you like her has a 110% chance of failing.

But hey, at least you have a 10% chance of absolutely guaranteeing failure.
British_Steal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2012, 11:51 AM   #13
jazz_rock_feel
A Joke Ban Broke My Title
 
jazz_rock_feel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleepy__Head
Unless you're Stravinsky. But he's not Classical classical, more Modern classical so I guess that doesn't count. I'll shut up now.

Yeah, Stravinsky never used motives...
__________________
I don't know what music theory is.


Soundcloud. Look at it. Or don't.
jazz_rock_feel is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2012, 02:11 PM   #14
Hail
kill both bass players
 
Hail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Dallas
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazz_rock_feel
Yeah, Stravinsky never used motives...



stravinsky cover
Hail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2012, 02:46 PM   #15
Sleepy__Head
A cornucopia of trivia
 
Sleepy__Head's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Butt****, SY
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazz_rock_feel
Yeah, Stravinsky never used motives...


He doesn't develop them in the Rite of Spring - not in the way the Romantics would have. He just juxtaposes great bit blocks of music one after another.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hail
oh shut up with that /mu/ bullshit. fidget house shouldn't even be a genre, why in the world would it deserve its own subgenres you twat
Sleepy__Head is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2012, 02:54 PM   #16
Xiaoxi
Registered Luser
 
Xiaoxi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: libtard Maryland
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleepy__Head
Unless you're Stravinsky. But he's not Classical classical, more Modern classical so I guess that doesn't count. I'll shut up now.

Stravinksy is every bit about motivic development as Beethoven.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by BjarnedeGraaf
I want to reconcile the violence in your heart
I want to recognise your beauty's not just a mask
I want to exorcise the demons from your past
I want to satisfy the undisclosed desires in your heart

Xiaoxi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2012, 02:55 PM   #17
Xiaoxi
Registered Luser
 
Xiaoxi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: libtard Maryland
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unreal T
Sounds very time consuming. I think I might just go back to playing pop and rock lol.
Of course. If it was easy, everybody could do it.
Quote:
The main reason I am getting into the Baroque and Classical music is to expand my vocabulary and understanding of note durations and time signatures. So if anyone knows of any pieces that are very good to study please let me know.

You don't really need classical music to do that. Any number of styles of music can teach you about rhythms.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by BjarnedeGraaf
I want to reconcile the violence in your heart
I want to recognise your beauty's not just a mask
I want to exorcise the demons from your past
I want to satisfy the undisclosed desires in your heart

Xiaoxi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2012, 05:40 AM   #18
Sleepy__Head
A cornucopia of trivia
 
Sleepy__Head's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Butt****, SY
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiaoxi
Stravinksy is every bit about motivic development as Beethoven.


Perhaps. He tended to treat motives more as a collage than Beethoven ever did - break them down, stick them all back together again in a different order. Yes, that's development of a kind. It's not the same sort of development as Beethoven's kind of development though.

As far as fugues go: There's not much development going on in a fugue. It's a more-or-less strict repetition of the same motivic figure at the octave and/or fifth. It's the break from imitative forms that produced sonata form and the kind of extended development of motives you get in Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, &c.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hail
oh shut up with that /mu/ bullshit. fidget house shouldn't even be a genre, why in the world would it deserve its own subgenres you twat
Sleepy__Head is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2012, 06:23 AM   #19
National_Anthem
Quite the toff
 
National_Anthem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London, UK
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleepy__Head
He doesn't develop them in the Rite of Spring - not in the way the Romantics would have. He just juxtaposes great bit blocks of music one after another.


Lol. There's clear motivic relationships between many of the movements, not to mention the motivic development that happens within the movements. Just because you can't find some overarching, unifying scheme of development through a Ballet, to say that he doesn't develop material is ridiculous. It's like trying to claim that Mozart or Beethoven didn't develop themes in Operas, or Fantasias, or any other number of pieces that don't fit the model of "first movement sonata form".

And in what way would the "Romantics" have developed material? Are you saying that they all developed material in the "Romantic" way?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleepy__Head
Perhaps. He tended to treat motives more as a collage than Beethoven ever did - break them down, stick them all back together again in a different order. Yes, that's development of a kind. It's not the same sort of development as Beethoven's kind of development though.


...
That's kind of the signature Beethoven approach to development. He's renowned for breaking down themes into motivic cells, and putting together motives to form themes. And what is Beethoven's kind of development? You do realise that he didn't compose and develop material the same way all of his life?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleep__Head
As far as fugues go: There's not much development going on in a fugue. It's a more-or-less strict repetition of the same motivic figure at the octave and/or fifth.


Fugues are ALL about development, otherwise they'd just be a canon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleep__Head
It's the break from imitative forms that produced sonata form and the kind of extended development of motives you get in Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, &c.


Please stop talking crap. The history of sonata style has very little to do with that of the Fugue. Sonata style did not supplant the fugue, and indeed sonatas quite often incorporate elements of fugue.

At the time that Bach was writing his fugues, he was pretty much the only person writing them, yet somehow, people get this idea that all Baroque composers ever did was write fugues. If anything, sonata forms were the evolution, and the synthesis of various non-imitative forms from the Baroque period, such as binary and ternary forms, rather than a reaction against Fugues.

Also, I wouldn't describe Mozartian development as "extended" in the same way that I would Haydn or Beethoven. Obviously, Mozart develops material as well, but he's much more likely to dart from theme to theme, and then develop, whereas Haydn and Beethoven are much more economical with their material.
__________________
Flickr

Last edited by National_Anthem : 08-27-2012 at 06:25 AM.
National_Anthem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2012, 06:29 AM   #20
rockingamer2
Larmarky Remark
 
rockingamer2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Rainy Northwest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleepy__Head
As far as fugues go: There's not much development going on in a fugue. It's a more-or-less strict repetition of the same motivic figure at the octave and/or fifth. It's the break from imitative forms that produced sonata form and the kind of extended development of motives you get in Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, &c.

WAT.

I'm waiting to see what our resident fugue guy has to say about this.
__________________
^^The above is a Cryptic Metaphor^^

"To know the truth of history is to realize its ultimate myth and its inevitable ambiguity."

MUSIC THEORY LINK

SteamID: CarrionComfort
rockingamer2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:24 PM.

Forum Archives / About / Terms of Use / Advertise / Contact / Ultimate-Guitar.Com © 2014
Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.