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Old 09-01-2012, 01:48 PM   #1
deHufter
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Army Of Me - Bjork (C Locrian?)

I know I'm risking my life right now, but can you consider Army Of Me by Bjork being in
C locrian? Especially the verses.

The bass is playing: C Gb Ab and Bb
She's singing: C Db Eb
It resolves to C
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Old 09-01-2012, 02:01 PM   #2
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Would depend on the rest of the song. It's most likely just accidentals within C minor that use accidentals that are associated with C Locrian. Modes aren't really on/off.
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Old 09-01-2012, 02:09 PM   #3
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I think it's hardly accidentals when throughout the whole song it's:

C Db Eb Gb Ab and Bb. She really emphasizes the Db, but I agree that it could be an accidental cause the Gb is used sparely. In the chorus she clearly sings a G over some kind of chromatic progression (D - Db - C).

That's why I thought the verse could be considered locrian while the chorus is more C minor with accidentals.
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Old 09-01-2012, 02:28 PM   #4
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Even if the whole song was C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb, no.

Does it sound resolved? It's ****ing tonal.
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Old 09-01-2012, 02:47 PM   #5
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You have a rather odd definition of modal and tonal: it's modal when there's no form of resolution whatsoever. Couldnt agree with that.

Here's some soap to cleanse your mouth from filthy talk:

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Old 09-01-2012, 02:58 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by deHufter
Here's some soap to cleanse your mouth from filthy talk:



lol.


I can't help you personally, ts. but I commend your taste in music.
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Old 09-01-2012, 03:10 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by deHufter
You have a rather odd definition of modal and tonal: it's modal when there's no form of resolution whatsoever. Couldnt agree with that.


I didn't say that.

What I should of said is 'learn what tonality is and stop clutching at straws trying to find something that is modal just to satisfy your ego when the song is tonal'.

Want something modal? Go listen to some Gregorian chant

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Old 09-01-2012, 03:17 PM   #8
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May I then ask your opinion about the modes-sticky?

If I don't get you wrong you must think this and this is a load of crap right?
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Old 09-01-2012, 03:20 PM   #9
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If you understand tonality, it's pretty useless (no offense to Darren).
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Old 09-01-2012, 03:46 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by griffRG7321
If you understand tonality, it's pretty useless (no offense to Darren).


You know, I understand why people get frustrated with this line of answer.

For a coupe of reasons:

First of all, it's not really an answer. Gregorian chants, once assumes, aren't modal because they're gregorian chants, but rather because of certain musical qualities that they have. It's not impossible for those musical qualities to be applied to a contemporary piece of music, is it?

On most subjects, people can ask a question on this board and get a useful answer. But on the question of "What makes something modal, and what makes something tonal?" people are basically told that they just don't understand enough.

I have a pretty good grasp of tonality, and I can't answer that question. I asked once and got the answer "tonality has replaced modality" which isn't, actually, an answer to the question.

Furthermore, there are smart people out there who know music who describe plenty of contemporary music as modal. eg, Howard Goodall has described both "Elanor Rigby" and "We Work the Black Seam" as modal. I'm quite confident that some regular posters here would disagree. But without some sort of functional definition, so long as the answer is always something like "you want modal, listen to gregorian chants" or "keys have replaced modes" nobody has the tools to square the circle.

I think modes confuse more than they help, and I am as frustrated as anyone about how much guitarists seem to obsess over them. More often than not, I understand why it makes sense to think of a mode as a series of accidentals in fundamentally tonal music.

But I wish some folks here would at least try to give the bare bones of a functional definition.
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Old 09-01-2012, 04:02 PM   #11
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I don't really get the hostility. I'm asking a question if something could be considered modal, I didn't state: IT'S MODAL MAN! LOOK AT ME BEING SMART!

I think there are two groups of people here on this forum: people who have a conservative and fundamentalistic view of modes and people who have a wider definition. The first group thinks -with all due respect grifff- that gregorian chants are modal, but soon as you play the melody on a guitar it's tonal. Everytime there's a mode threat there's this -as hotspur said- invisible unknown set of vague rules which define modal. Only the people who shout THAT'S NOT MODAL seem to 'know' what that is, but can't really make it more concrete than: 'Well hey, 99% of all songs is tonal'.
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Old 09-01-2012, 04:02 PM   #12
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What I should of said

yikes
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Old 09-01-2012, 04:11 PM   #13
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People trying to label everything as modal are the same people trying to call a bII chord a Neapolitan chord. It's trying to make things sound more complicated than they are.

"C, D/C, G/B, that's lydian bro, I'll use the C lydian scale over it"
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Old 09-01-2012, 04:13 PM   #14
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Then enlighten us. What's your definition of modal?
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Old 09-01-2012, 04:15 PM   #15
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What's the issue with calling it a Neapolitan chord?

It's a conventional name for something. It's not attempting to make things more complicated, it's simply calling something by its name. If I call you "Griff" instead of "human being", am I needlessly complicating matters?
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Old 09-01-2012, 05:44 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by :-D
What's the issue with calling it a Neapolitan chord?


Because that's not what it is.

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Originally Posted by :-D
It's a conventional name for something. It's not attempting to make things more complicated, it's simply calling something by its name. If I call you "Griff" instead of "human being", am I needlessly complicating matters?


If you called someone who looked like me Griff who wasn't called Griff, then yes.


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Originally Posted by deHufter
Then enlighten us. What's your definition of modal?


Characterized by particular melodic patterns, outlines and shapes. These shapes formed the main skeleton of modal music, and were used in different orders and filled in using passing notes depending on the mode. A mode is characterized by a set of pitches and complex melodic patterns.
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Old 09-01-2012, 05:51 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by griffRG7321
People trying to label everything as modal are the same people trying to call a bII chord a Neapolitan chord. It's trying to make things sound more complicated than they are.


Again - Howard Goodall, a highly respected English composer and teacher - called "Elanor Rigby" modal (in his "20th Century Masters - The Beatles" program) and "We Work the Black Seam" modal (in his "How Music Works" series).

I am not asking this question rhetorically in any way, shape, or form. I'm honestly trying to understand what appears to me to be a disagreement between two sets of people who know more about music than I do. So the question is:

Why is he wrong?
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Old 09-01-2012, 05:55 PM   #18
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Because that's not what it is.

I may have misunderstood your initial post - are you just referring to people calling any instance of a bII a Neapolitan?
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Old 09-01-2012, 05:57 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by :-D
I may have misunderstood your initial post - are you just referring to people calling any instance of a bII a Neapolitan?


No. Calling a root position or second inversion bII a Neapolitan chord.


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Originally Posted by HotspurJr

Why is he wrong?


Because both of those songs are tonal.
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Old 09-01-2012, 05:58 PM   #20
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yeah, that's what I was referring to - I meant "instance" as in any form of the chord.
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