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Old 09-01-2012, 06:14 PM   #21
deHufter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griffRG7321
Characterized by particular melodic patterns, outlines and shapes.


What melodic patterns? Which outlines and which shapes?

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Originally Posted by griffRG7321
the main skeleton


What do you mean with skeleton?

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Originally Posted by griffRG7321
different orders


Such as?

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Originally Posted by griffRG7321
and filled in using passing notes depending on the mode.


What do you mean with passing notes?

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Originally Posted by griffRG7321
A mode is characterized by a set of pitches and complex melodic patterns.


What set of pitches? Examples? What do you mean by complex? Is a mode per definition complex? And if yes, why? Which melodic patterns?

Could you be more concrete?
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Old 09-01-2012, 06:19 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by deHufter
What melodic patterns? Which outlines and which shapes?

What do you mean with skeleton?

Such as?

What do you mean with passing notes?

What set of pitches? Examples? What do you mean by complex? Is a mode per definition complex? And if yes, why? Which melodic patterns?

Could you be more concrete?


If you're interested in writing plainchants, get a book on the subject.

A passing note is one or two notes connecting two chord tones by step.
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Old 09-01-2012, 06:21 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by griffRG7321
If you're interested in writing plainchants, get a book on the subject.

A passing note is one or two notes connecting two chord tones by step.


Don't think this is an answer to all of my questions though.
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Old 09-01-2012, 06:26 PM   #24
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Don't think this is an answer to all of my questions though.


I'm not a walking encyclopedia of plainchant knowledge. If you want to know the characteristics of each mode then read up on it.

Skeleton, referring to the bare bones of the melody, minus any decoration.
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Old 09-01-2012, 06:31 PM   #25
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But how can you be certain something's not modal if you don't know all the characteristics?
I mean, if you can 'hear it', then certainly you can put into words what you are hearing right?
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Old 09-01-2012, 07:01 PM   #26
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all I want to say is IM ****ING HAPPY THERE'S A BJÍRK THREAD!!!!! THAT WOMAN IS A GODDESS!!!! BEST ARTIST EVER AND SEXIEST WOMAN EVER!!!
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Old 09-01-2012, 07:04 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by griffRG7321
Because both of those songs are tonal.


That is not a useful answer.

In fact, it's a rather obnoxious one.

Why are they tonal?

What are the qualities of Gregorian chants which make them modal?

Why should I believe you rather than a respected and successful composer with degrees in music?

I would think these would be simple questions. The fact that people seem so reluctant to answer them makes me start to think I'm dealing with dogma here, rather than reason.
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Old 09-01-2012, 07:15 PM   #28
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90 percent of the things that guys says are obnoxious , you'd have better luck trying to get your answer by banging your head against a wall
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Old 09-01-2012, 07:16 PM   #29
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all I want to say is IM ****ING HAPPY THERE'S A BJÍRK THREAD!!!!! THAT WOMAN IS A GODDESS!!!! BEST ARTIST EVER AND SEXIEST WOMAN EVER!!!




Quote:
Originally Posted by HotspurJr
That is not a useful answer.

In fact, it's a rather obnoxious one.

Why are they tonal?

What are the qualities of Gregorian chants which make them modal?

Why should I believe you rather than a respected and successful composer with degrees in music?

I would think these would be simple questions. The fact that people seem so reluctant to answer them makes me start to think I'm dealing with dogma here, rather than reason.


This. Exactly this.
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Old 09-01-2012, 07:23 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotspurJr

What are the qualities of Gregorian chants which make them modal?


Scroll up.

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Originally Posted by HotspurJr
Why should I believe you rather than a respected and successful composer with degrees in music?


Believe who you want, I couldn't give a monkeys. Referring to obviously tonal pieces as modal is nonsensical.

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Originally Posted by HotspurJr
Why are they tonal?


Are you being serious? Explain to me what you think tonality is.

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Originally Posted by nosuchmanasmole
90 percent of the things that guys says are obnoxious , you'd have better luck trying to get your answer by banging your head against a wall


That hurt my feelings bro, fo realz
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Old 09-01-2012, 07:38 PM   #31
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Old 09-01-2012, 07:43 PM   #32
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I thought the answer would be "it's not locrian because it doesn't resolve to a diminished chord". I'd listen to the song again to analyse it but I've never liked it.
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Old 09-01-2012, 08:12 PM   #33
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AWESOME. now i can't listen to bjork anymore...C locrian? REALLY?
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Old 09-01-2012, 08:14 PM   #34
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AWESOME. now i can't listen to bjork anymore...C locrian? REALLY?


Tell me everything about gregorian chant bro, otherwise it's in C locrian because you can't prove it's not.
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Old 09-01-2012, 08:20 PM   #35
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tell you what

i'll listen to this later and post my opinion

there's no way it'll be wrong, and if anyone argues with me they'll get bapped
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Old 09-01-2012, 08:21 PM   #36
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Tell me everything about gregorian chant bro, otherwise it's in C locrian because you can't prove it's not.


just flipped through the thread

jeez, i thought we finally had a grasp on the modes thing by now

even if it was modal, most modality is just ridiculously primitive tonality, and at that point, who really cares if it's modal or not.

even if it was atonal, who really cares? if it resolves to C, what quality is the C? Minor or Major? Minor, you say? well shit in my britches, you have a key. next

though i haven't sat and figured the song out honestly, even if i had, you know what notes are there, you know what it resolves to, you know what she sings and the bass plays, like, what else do you really need? what is there to grab from there?

if you want to analyze bjork, focus on her movement more than the tonality as a whole.

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Old 09-01-2012, 08:42 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Hail

even if it was modal, most modality is just ridiculously primitive tonality, and at that point, who really cares if it's modal or not.

even if it was atonal, who really cares? if it resolves to C, what quality is the C? Minor or Major? Minor, you say? well shit in my britches, you have a key. next

though i haven't sat and figured the song out honestly, even if i had, you know what notes are there, you know what it resolves to, you know what she sings and the bass plays, like, what else do you really need? what is there to grab from there?


Sig worthy. You have a way with words that I do not possess.
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Old 09-01-2012, 09:15 PM   #38
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Sig worthy. You have a way with words that I do not possess.


Yeah, and all you can do is go into this 'it's tonal man' rhyme again. You didn't answer my questions, you didn't answer Hotspurs. I'm getting the feeling you don't answer them because you can't.

Give some criteria, rules, conventions or whatever. Do you really read back your posts?
The only thing that you wrote was something like: 'Yeah, complex, this and this rule, and this and this melody'. It really sounds ridicilous, and every anti-mode cop here buys it. It's hilarious, or sad.

So, when is a piece in let's say phrygian?
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Old 09-01-2012, 09:25 PM   #39
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Yeah, and all you can do is go into this 'it's tonal man' rhyme again. You didn't answer my questions, you didn't answer Hotspurs. I'm getting the feeling you don't answer them because you can't.

Give some criteria, rules, conventions or whatever. Do you really read back your posts?
The only thing that you wrote was something like: 'Yeah, complex, this and this rule, and this and this melody'. It really sounds ridicilous, and every anti-mode cop here buys it. It's hilarious, or sad.


sorry, i know i'm probably not helping much either cause i've had a shit day, but this whole modal misconception on this site has really worn down the patience of a lot of people here.

same as when someone asks what scale gives a "middle-eastern" feel - there's only so many times you can say "scales don't mean diddly squat outside of suggesting tonality" before you go to stab yourself in the eye with a fork

and i know i'm not griff, but i personally go out of my way to avoid taking modes questions and explanations seriously cause they really just don't matter, analytically or practically, even after the loads of clarifications involved in "just because it has a b2, b3, b6, and b7 doesn't mean it's in phrygian" that people fall into when the shred-heads post up faux-music-theory adlibs on their DVDs and youtube vids
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Old 09-01-2012, 09:31 PM   #40
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sorry, i know i'm probably not helping much either cause i've had a shit day, but this whole modal misconception on this site has really worn down the patience of a lot of people here.

same as when someone asks what scale gives a "middle-eastern" feel - there's only so many times you can say "scales don't mean diddly squat outside of suggesting tonality" before you go to stab yourself in the eye with a fork

and i know i'm not griff, but i personally go out of my way to avoid taking modes questions and explanations seriously cause they really just don't matter, analytically or practically, even after the loads of clarifications involved in "just because it has a b2, b3, b6, and b7 doesn't mean it's in phrygian" that people fall into when the shred-heads post up faux-music-theory adlibs on their DVDs and youtube vids


I see what you are saying. But do you also get that some people are tired of 'you mentioned modes, so you are a ****tard'? I mean, if it doesn't matter that much like you said, why does it matter to think something's locrian when all the notes are:
C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb? No, it's just C minor and the Db is an accidental. Oh wait, the Gb is an accidental too. Like that you can analyze anything to the point it's just a major or minor with accidentals. So my question is a genuine one:

What makes a mode a mode?
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