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Old 09-07-2012, 11:44 AM   #1
VeilSide
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Buying an amp soon, can't decide which one...

hi,

i've asked around here a couple of times but still can't decide on which amp will be the best... hopefully ill get a better answer this time...

Budget? - around 1600$

Genres? - punk, classic rock pretty much it.

looking for the old descendents sound (milo goes to collage, i dont want to grow up)
the offspring (ignition, smash albums)
black flag (damaged, Nervous breakdown EP)
minor threat

i don't know if its possible to get the older punk sounds but maybe the sharper(?) sounds, like rise against have in their newer (appeal to reason) album as well from the same amp.


New or Used? - doesn't matter, as long as it's from eBay or something, 2nd hand market around my area isn't great.

Home or Gig? - i'm looking for a bed room amp, 15~50w would do, head/cab or combo.

Closest City? - haifa, tel aviv (israel)

Current Gear? - i have a Gibson SG Standard and a Marshall MG15...
i also have a pod hd400, which i use a lot to make my crap amp sound somewhat better. hopefully a new amp will have a good overdrive sound on its own.

what do you guys think about these for the kinda sound im looking for?

orange dark terror / orange 212 cab
orange dark terror / mesa rectifier cab
peavey 6505 112 combo
marshall ma50 head/cab
carvin v3m
mesa mini rec (kinda out of my budget but, is it worth the extra?)

any help is appreciated.

cheers!
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Old 09-07-2012, 12:08 PM   #2
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I would try to find a used Marshall JCM800. Shouldn't be too hard to find one within your budget.

I don't think the Peavey would be a good choice, that amp is a little more geared to metal.

I haven't played the mini rec, but I've played a dual rec and while it is an amazing amp, it probably wouldn't be the best choice for what you're looking for.
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Old 09-07-2012, 12:08 PM   #3
Metalloy
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im not an amp expert.
Scratch that, i am a big noob.
But 50watt is a little too much for bedroom application, especially if you to take advantage of overdriving the amp to get the sound you want, a 50 watt amp will be too loud. I have a small 4 watt vox Ac4t with an attenuator and i always use it on the 0.25watt setting to keep a low volume.

Now things are easier if you're keeping your pedal, since you can easily control the volume from your pedal, but it really is going against the purpose of having a tube amp in my opinion.
I know i havent been really helpful, i just wanted to point out that 50 watt maybe more then you actually want, and 15watt is more than enough for bedroom practice.

Last edited by Metalloy : 09-07-2012 at 12:10 PM.
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Old 09-07-2012, 12:16 PM   #4
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bedroom amp? you definitely don't need 50 tubes watts for that. 15 would be acceptable but look into an amp with a half power switch, I know the orange has those. Someone already mentioned the Vox ac4t, also.

You need to play as many amps as you can before you decide, don't go by others opinions. It's yours that matters
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Old 09-07-2012, 12:18 PM   #5
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Don't get the dark terror. It is has too much GAIN. The tiny terror would suit you better, it's has a great classic rock sound, you will love it.
I have the combo version, but with your budget you could get the hardwired version.
Also you will need a reverb pedal! I just bought the TC Hall of Fame and I don't know how I managed with out it.

By the way, 50w is way too loud for bedroom. 15w is absolute max!

Last edited by Wot's... Uh : 09-07-2012 at 12:19 PM.
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Old 09-07-2012, 12:37 PM   #6
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1 or 2 watts for bedroom use.
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Old 09-07-2012, 12:39 PM   #7
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The Carvin's got power switching (you can cut it down to I believe 7 watts) and sounds pretty good.
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Old 09-07-2012, 12:40 PM   #8
Arby911
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalloy
im not an amp expert.
Scratch that, i am a big noob.
But 50watt is a little too much for bedroom application, especially if you to take advantage of overdriving the amp to get the sound you want, a 50 watt amp will be too loud. I have a small 4 watt vox Ac4t with an attenuator and i always use it on the 0.25watt setting to keep a low volume.

Now things are easier if you're keeping your pedal, since you can easily control the volume from your pedal, but it really is going against the purpose of having a tube amp in my opinion.
I know i havent been really helpful, i just wanted to point out that 50 watt maybe more then you actually want, and 15watt is more than enough for bedroom practice.


What is the volume difference between a 50w amp and a 15w amp?
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Old 09-07-2012, 12:42 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arby911
What is the volume difference between a 50w amp and a 15w amp?

50w will be less than twice as loud, but have a LOT more clean headroom.
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Old 09-07-2012, 01:40 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AeolianSeventh
50w will be less than twice as loud, but have a LOT more clean headroom.


Shush, wasn't asking you...

I was asking the 'helpful' poster who, by their own admission, doesn't have the foggiest ****ing clue what they are talking about.

As shown by the suggestion, which was why I asked the question.
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Old 09-07-2012, 02:16 PM   #11
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actually i do have a little clue, and twice as loud is not really a small detai, as the OP said, this is a bedroom amp, twice as loud makes all the difference really, and overdriving the tubes all the way will be more difficult in bedroom situation when the amp have a higher wattage output.
And please, if i am saying something wrong correct me, but do so with a little respect, no need for insults, i did say im not an expert so i actually am expecting someone to point out a flaw or 2 in my response if any.
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Old 09-07-2012, 02:23 PM   #12
Arby911
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalloy
actually i do have a little clue, and twice as loud is not really a small detai, as the OP said, this is a bedroom amp, twice as loud makes all the difference really, and overdriving the tubes all the way will be more difficult in bedroom situation when the amp have a higher wattage output.
And please, if i am saying something wrong correct me, but do so with a little respect, no need for insults, i did say im not an expert so i actually am expecting someone to point out a flaw or 2 in my response if any.


Except it's NOT 'twice as loud', not even close.

You'll get exactly the respect you earn, and making incorrect claims doesn't earn much.

If you don't know something, don't address it. It really is that simple. There are a few things I know, and a great many I don't. The advice I give on those I don't know is simple...

None.

I'm sorry if you're feeling put upon by my response, but bad data is bad data.


As for overdriving the tubes, does the OP need power amp or preamp distortion? Do you know?
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Last edited by Arby911 : 09-07-2012 at 02:25 PM.
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Old 09-07-2012, 02:30 PM   #13
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the twice as loud part is based on the poster that answered your previous trick question, and seriously i didnt even provide data to begin with. i said 50 watt is a little too much for a bed room situation, and other poster in here did agree when they proposed a 1 or 2 watt amp, or sayimg 15 watt amps are good enough.
I know that the loudness is not proportional to wattage, i know that a 100 watt amp is not twice as loud as a 50 watt amp, but i also know that in bedroom situation you better off with small wattage amps.
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Old 09-07-2012, 02:45 PM   #14
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You say you're playing in the bedroom - do you actually need bedroom (TV/talking) volumes? Because that will make a huge difference in what we should recommend.

If you can turn up loud, I recommend you get a Marshall JVM205 or a DSL50, and a good 2x12 cab like a Marshall 1936.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalloy
the twice as loud part is based on the poster that answered your previous trick question, and seriously i didnt even provide data to begin with. i said 50 watt is a little too much for a bed room situation, and other poster in here did agree when they proposed a 1 or 2 watt amp, or sayimg 15 watt amps are good enough.
I know that the loudness is not proportional to wattage, i know that a 100 watt amp is not twice as loud as a 50 watt amp, but i also know that in bedroom situation you better off with small wattage amps.



Except that that is not true at all. I own two amps - they are both 120W. I live in a 2 bedroom apartment.

The DESIGN of the amp is what determines if it will sound good at low volumes or not. wattage is a MEASURE OF HEADROOM. That is all. My JSX sounds amazing at low volumes because it has individual channel volumes and a master volume as well. That is pat of the design.

A 5W Marshall Class 5 on the other hand is a terrible choice for the bedroom because you have to crank it to get dirt, and cranking an amp is painfully loud. It is low wattage so that you can get a cranked sound at a manageable practive/venue volume, NOT bedroom volume. It's all in the design.
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Last edited by Offworld92 : 09-07-2012 at 02:48 PM.
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Old 09-07-2012, 03:02 PM   #15
Arby911
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalloy
the twice as loud part is based on the poster that answered your previous trick question, and seriously i didnt even provide data to begin with. i said 50 watt is a little too much for a bed room situation, and other poster in here did agree when they proposed a 1 or 2 watt amp, or sayimg 15 watt amps are good enough.
I know that the loudness is not proportional to wattage, i know that a 100 watt amp is not twice as loud as a 50 watt amp, but i also know that in bedroom situation you better off with small wattage amps.



Ok, here we go.

50 watts is NOT 'too much' for a bedroom situation, because it's dependent on the actual needs. A 50w amp with a master volume playing genres that need preamp distortion is fine, since it doesn't have to be cranked to achieve the desired result.

Second, you need to reread the posters response, as he did not say it was twice as loud.

Just so you know, it's 5.22db 'louder', or a little less than 1 1/2 times as loud. Not imperceptible, but not significant.

Third, loudness is absolutely proportional to wattage, it's just logarithmically proportional.

Loudness is also dependent on speaker efficiency and number of speakers...A 15w amp run through 2 100db efficiency speakers will actually be louder than a 50w amp run through a single 97db speaker. (Granted, only by .78db, but the point remains...)

Fourth, you are not always 'better off' with smaller wattage amps in the bedroom, that's a misconception that's generally based on a (false) understanding of how watts and volume actually work. Consider that a very low wattage amp that distorts too early will make it damnably difficult to play any clean passages...

Hope that helps you get started on understanding.
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Old 09-07-2012, 03:09 PM   #16
Metalloy
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first of all, i appreciate the way you answered, pointing out my mistakes and correcting them without being disrespectful.
Second, i understand that the more wattage the more headroom you have, but also the louder you can be. If he want to crank a 120watt amp, im sure itll be really loud for a bedroom, but if it is only for the clean tone you can still play with a reasnable volume.
Now i got your point about different designs and the fact that he may not even need to crank his amp to get the sound he's looking for, note taken
if i said anything wrong please point that out and corrected for me.
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Old 09-07-2012, 03:11 PM   #17
Metalloy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arby911
Ok, here we go.

50 watts is NOT 'too much' for a bedroom situation, because it's dependent on the actual needs. A 50w amp with a master volume playing genres that need preamp distortion is fine, since it doesn't have to be cranked to achieve the desired result.

Second, you need to reread the posters response, as he did not say it was twice as loud.

Just so you know, it's 5.22db 'louder', or a little less than 1 1/2 times as loud. Not imperceptible, but not significant.

Third, loudness is absolutely proportional to wattage, it's just logarithmically proportional.

Loudness is also dependent on speaker efficiency and number of speakers...A 15w amp run through 2 100db efficiency speakers will actually be louder than a 50w amp run through a single 97db speaker. (Granted, only by .78db, but the point remains...)

Fourth, you are not always 'better off' with smaller wattage amps in the bedroom, that's a misconception that's generally based on a (false) understanding of how watts and volume actually work. Consider that a very low wattage amp that distorts too early will make it damnably difficult to play any clean passages...

Hope that helps you get started on understanding.

my last post was written before reading this post.
thank you for this explanation, it helped a lot, this is some interisting and valuable info, thanks again.
No hard feelings bro
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Old 09-07-2012, 03:14 PM   #18
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Well the general idea is that you really can't crank anything at bedroom volumes. A big part of the "cranked" sound is in fact the volume of it, and how we perceive volume.

Some people say they can get good cranked sounds out of 1W amps and lower at reasonable - I've never played an amp that small, but I still find that hard to believe.
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Old 09-07-2012, 03:19 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalloy
my last post was written before reading this post.
thank you for this explanation, it helped a lot, this is some interisting and valuable info, thanks again.
No hard feelings bro


It's all good, no one I know was born knowing this stuff...we all learned it at some point.

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Old 09-07-2012, 10:43 PM   #20
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so, i guess the bottom line is, i should get the tiny / dark terror heads?
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