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Old 09-20-2012, 04:05 AM   #21
Sleepy__Head
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanHB
Can you tell the difference between C major and A minor?


Don't you mean the major mode or the minor mode?
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oh shut up with that /mu/ bullshit. fidget house shouldn't even be a genre, why in the world would it deserve its own subgenres you twat
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Old 09-20-2012, 04:08 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleepy__Head
Don't you mean the major mode or the minor mode?


baby steps kid
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Old 09-20-2012, 04:16 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Green_Ghoul
So what's the difference between a dominant 7 and major 7th?


Intervals!
2nd, 3rd, 6th, 7th - these can be Diminished / Major / Minor / Augmented
4th, 5th - these can be Diminished / Perfect / Augmented

Rock / Jazz musicians tend to talk about <interval> and b<interval> instead of major / minor.

So a classical musician might say major 2nd / minor 2nd
A rock / jazz musician might say 2 / b2

Chords!
Seventh chord:

1 3 5 b7

The b7 is a minor 7th from the root of the chord (the 1)

Major 7th chord:

1 3 5 7

The 7 is a major 7th from the root of the chord (the 1)


Harmony!

Major scale

I - Tonic
II - Supertonic
III - Mediant
IV - SubDominant
V - Dominant
VI - SubMediant
VII - Leading Note

(Why the roman numerals? How should I know?)

A Dominant 7th chord is a 7th whose root (the 1 of the chord) is the Dominant. This will often be shown as V7.

A common progression in most kinds of music (not just Jazz) is V or V7 > I. Try it (G7 > C, F7 > Bb, D7 > G)

The Dominant 'wants' (actually it doesn't want anything - we (for a variety of reasons) want it, but I digress) to go to the Tonic.


Understanding!

?
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oh shut up with that /mu/ bullshit. fidget house shouldn't even be a genre, why in the world would it deserve its own subgenres you twat
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Old 09-20-2012, 04:23 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Hail
baby steps kid


http://zvon.org/other/elisp/Output/SEC337.html

No, srsly.
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oh shut up with that /mu/ bullshit. fidget house shouldn't even be a genre, why in the world would it deserve its own subgenres you twat
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Old 09-20-2012, 08:41 AM   #25
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OK, back to the topic.

If you just play the V7 chord of the new key before modulating, it will not sound smooth. Dominant V chords aren't even used that much in rock music. For example Def Leppard modulates usually before the chorus. They just jump to the next key without any V7 chords. I think it's something in the melody that makes it sound smooth.



First part (it modulates to the relative major and then this part comes again): C#m, F#, A, C#m, A, F# and the first part ends C#m, B, A
Then comes the second part: F, G
And third part: B, D, A, E and then back to C#m. It sounds smooth and if you didn't know anything about theory, you wouldn't even notice the modulation, it would just sound cool and you wouldn't know why. So the keys in the song are C#m -> G (with b7) -> B (that is kind of B minor but the I chord is a major chord) and then back to C#m. And no V7 chords used.

Def Leppard modulations just jump to the new key and sound smooth. They know how to do it. But first try to make a good song and after that start playing with modulations and other cool stuff. Def Leppard has made many songs and albums.

And modulate only if you need to. If it sounded good without modulations, why would you modulate? Does the song need a modulation?
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Last edited by MaggaraMarine : 09-20-2012 at 08:42 AM.
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Old 09-20-2012, 08:51 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaggaraMarine
Def Leppard has made many terrible songs and albums.


Rectified.
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oh shut up with that /mu/ bullshit. fidget house shouldn't even be a genre, why in the world would it deserve its own subgenres you twat
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Old 09-20-2012, 09:00 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleepy__Head
Rectified.

Opinions are opinions.
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Old 09-20-2012, 09:55 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaggaraMarine
Dominant V chords are used all the time in rock music.


Fixed.
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Old 09-20-2012, 11:20 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleepy__Head
Rectified.

Regardless of what you think of them their songs are well-written and full of great examples of harmony...keep your opinions to yourself if they're going to get in the way of helping someone.
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Old 09-20-2012, 12:50 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrkeka
Fixed.

Wrong, they are not. That Def Leppard song didn't have a single dominant V chord. Many major rock songs use I-bVII-IV and minor i-VI-VII. No dominant V chords. Yes, there are rock songs with dominant V chords but listen to AC/DC. They use I-bVII-IV all the time. The IV is much more common than V in rock. That's what my point was. And in rock music you don't modulate with V7 chords. That's what they do in classical (and not always even there). V7 chord modulation is kind of a "poor man's modulation."

EDIT: I mean, yes they are used but not that usually. I know that AC/DC has some I-IV-V songs but most of their songs are I-bVII-IV. And most of rock in major is I-bVII-IV or some variation of that. And minor rock songs don't really use that much the V dominant chord (E major in A minor). It gives the song that harmonic minor sound.
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Last edited by MaggaraMarine : 09-20-2012 at 12:56 PM.
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Old 09-20-2012, 01:22 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by MaggaraMarine
I mean, yes they are used but not that usually. I know that AC/DC has some I-IV-V songs but most of their songs are I-bVII-IV. And most of rock in major is I-bVII-IV or some variation of that. And minor rock songs don't really use that much the V dominant chord (E major in A minor). It gives the song that harmonic minor sound.


I take it you don't consider Clapton, Beatles, pretty much every 50s early rock and rockabilly band, blues rock, Malmsteen and other neoclassical/power metal stuff rock then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaggaraMarine
V7 chord modulation is kind of a "poor man's modulation."

I'm not even gonna comment this
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Last edited by mrkeka : 09-20-2012 at 01:23 PM.
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Old 09-20-2012, 01:25 PM   #32
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how in all the hell do you generalize all of rock and all of classical based on a single type of modulation all in one post

like what made you think that was a good idea
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Old 09-20-2012, 01:39 PM   #33
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This may or may not be mildly helpful, but one of my favorite/most obvious examples of a song where the band changes key is "Tattooed Women" by Tijuana Sweetheart (formerly Vagiant). Hellion actually screams "key change!" to signal that it's about to occur, and the relationship between the new key and the old key is pretty obvious at that point.
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Old 09-20-2012, 03:04 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaggaraMarine
OK, back to the topic.

If you just play the V7 chord of the new key before modulating, it will not sound smooth. Dominant V chords aren't even used that much in rock music. For example Def Leppard modulates usually before the chorus. They just jump to the next key without any V7 chords. I think it's something in the melody that makes it sound smooth.



First part (it modulates to the relative major and then this part comes again): C#m, F#, A, C#m, A, F# and the first part ends C#m, B, A
Then comes the second part: F, G
And third part: B, D, A, E and then back to C#m. It sounds smooth and if you didn't know anything about theory, you wouldn't even notice the modulation, it would just sound cool and you wouldn't know why. So the keys in the song are C#m -> G (with b7) -> B (that is kind of B minor but the I chord is a major chord) and then back to C#m. And no V7 chords used.

Def Leppard modulations just jump to the new key and sound smooth. They know how to do it. But first try to make a good song and after that start playing with modulations and other cool stuff. Def Leppard has made many songs and albums.

And modulate only if you need to. If it sounded good without modulations, why would you modulate? Does the song need a modulation?


obviously just picking a random key and jumping to it's V or V7 won't sound too smooth. to hide it you need to pick keys that share common notes and chords. that's why relative major and minors are great because it's literally all the same notes and chords. you don't need a V for the change because there is almost no change to be made.
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Old 09-20-2012, 03:29 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hail
how in all the hell do you generalize all of rock and all of classical based on a single type of modulation all in one post

like what made you think that was a good idea

It was a counter reaction, sorry about that. And that wasn't even the main point in what I posted. When I'm thinking of rock, '50s isn't what comes to my mind first. I said "usually" and what I mean by "usually" is that more than every second major rock song that I hear uses I-bVII-IV or a variation of it. For me rock is AC/DC, Led Zeppelin and that kind of stuff. To me AC/DC is what defines rock (just my opinion). It's the first thing that comes to my mind when you say "rock." But really, dominant V chords aren't used as much in pop music as they are in classical. They aren't as "important" as in baroque style music. (Also, neo-classical/power metal uses baroque style harmonies.) And when I said that V7 is a "poor man's modulation" I meant that jumping straight to the V7 chord of the new key doesn't sound natural. It would sound better to jump straight to the next key (like on the Def Leppard song). That's how modulations are usually done in pop/rock music.

But the main point is: Do you need to modulate? If you can't hear the modulation, then you maybe shouldn't modulate. If it sounds more natural to stay in the same key, then stay in the same key.
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Old 09-20-2012, 03:56 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaggaraMarine
But really, dominant V chords aren't used as much in pop music as they are in classical. They aren't as "important" as in baroque style music.


The dominant function is vital to ANY tonal music. The Dominant - Tonic movement is what establishes tonality. The mains representative of the dominant function is the dominant V. Therefore, the dominant V function is vital to ANY tonal music.
So unless you are going to claim most rock and pop is modal, please stop generalizing and saying "usually". Are there rock and pop songs which do not use the dominant V? Yes. But that doesn't mean that one should not know how to use V chords.
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Old 09-20-2012, 04:01 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by mrkeka
The dominant function is vital to ANY tonal music. The Dominant - Tonic movement is what establishes tonality. The mains representative of the dominant function is the dominant V. Therefore, the dominant V function is vital to ANY tonal music.
So unless you are going to claim most rock and pop is modal, please stop generalizing and saying "usually". Are there rock and pop songs which do not use the dominant V? Yes. But that doesn't mean that one should not know how to use V chords.

Of course. And I'm not claiming that most of rock is modal (it isn't). I was just saying that the dominant V chord is not as "important" in pop/rock. There was a study about that thing and the most used chords were I and IV in pop/rock. And again, it wasn't the main point. The main point was that if you jump straight to the V7 chord of the new key, it won't sound natural. That was my point so let's just STFU about this thing, OK?
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Old 09-20-2012, 04:19 PM   #38
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Old 09-20-2012, 04:33 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Green_Ghoul
I'm really confused....So an A major chord is A C# E, an A7 is A C# E G, and an Amaj7th is A C# E G#?

Yes, that's correct

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green_Ghoul
The G in the A7 is the flattened 7th in the major key? I'm I getting this right? And for the major 7th it's just the natural 7th?
That's also correct as far as it goes. I'm going to attempt to put it in context for you.

The problem you're having is, not acknowledging a "V7", or "dominant 7th" chord as a "flat 7th".

The b7th happens because when you form the "V" chord, (chord formed on the 5th degree of any major scale), it automatically flats the 7th.

The lazy, (and most commonly accepted), way of describing a major triad with a b7th, is "V7".

Blues commonly uses all "V7" chords in progressions. They obviously can't all be constructed from the 5th note of the scale being played. Yet still, they are referred to as "V7" chords. It's musical slang, if you will.

Playing a "maj7" chord on the 5th degree of any major scale would technically contain a note, not in the scale of the key being played.

So, key of C Major, with "V7" chord notes in parenthesis: C, D, E, F, (G), A, (B) ,C, (D), E, (F), G, A, B, C

The "V" (5) chord of C Major is G major (G), (B), (D). When you play it as a "V7", you add the note F natural.

If you played a "Gmaj7", the chord would contain an "F#" That note is not in the basic key of C major, and results a flat 5th in that key. In this context though, it would be normal practice to call that "F#", a "Gb"

Last edited by Captaincranky : 09-20-2012 at 04:41 PM.
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Old 09-20-2012, 05:14 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaggaraMarine
\ There was a study about that thing and the most used chords were I and IV in pop/rock. And again, it wasn't the main point. The main point was that if you jump straight to the V7 chord of the new key, it won't sound natural. That was my point so let's just STFU about this thing, OK?


Perhaps you meant this study:

http://www.hooktheory.com/blog/i-an...s-what-i-found/

In which case you're remembering it wrong. Vs are more common than IVs.

(I love it when somebody is dead wrong, and their reaction is to try to get everybody to stop talking. You're flat out wrong here. Vs are all all over Led Zeppelin and AC/DC.)

And actually if you're only moving one or two keys around the circle, you often can just jump into the V on the new key, particularly with a V7. This is because the V7 chord is neither purely major or minor, so it often fits even if the more natural chord would be minor.

Setting it up with a ii or with whatever the V chord is in the old key happens plenty, too ...

... but the notion that you can't just use a V7 I and be in the new key is insane. It happens in literally thousands of pop and rock songs. It's the most common modulation there is.
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