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Old 09-25-2012, 05:08 PM   #21
CelestialGuitar
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Originally Posted by metalmetalhead
so what would the frequency difference be between these? B# and C

yea context I do my best, I dont see why it must be diatonic corrected.

can it just be based of the chromatic scale where everything goes?


There is no difference between B# and C, they are the same note, however, depending on the key signature, the C may be written as a C or a B#.
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Old 09-25-2012, 07:06 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by CelestialGuitar
There is no difference between B# and C, they are the same note, however, depending on the key signature, the C may be written as a C or a B#.


why would this be? can you only use each note once so A B C is correct but A B B# is not because theres 2 B notes now. So E F bG bA is diatonic correct?
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Old 09-25-2012, 08:07 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by metalmetalhead
can you only use each note once so A B C is correct but A B B# is not because theres 2 B notes now.


yes.
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Old 09-26-2012, 05:03 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by J-Dawg158
Doesn't matter if there is a frequency difference or not. When you label notes with certain letters that implies a certain interval between the two notes. A - B is always a 2nd, A - C is always a 3rd, A - D is always a fourth, etc. etc. The sharps and flats adjust for the actual semi-tonal difference between the notes.

Why? That's a question of historical signifigance as to why standard music theory is what it is and how it came about, that I don't have the time to go into, but feel free to study on your own.

Edit: Or just PM Sleepy__Head. He's like a walking encyclopedia when it comes to the history of music


Speak of the devil

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12-Tone Equal Temperament (abbr. 12TET) tuning consists of dividing an octave into twelve equal parts (clue's in the name - 12 tone, equal temperament).

There are other ways to divide up the octave though*. Some are equal and some are not equal. If you have an unequal division then you can easily get into a situation where C# != Db, D# != Eb, ... B# != C.

"But why the hell would anyone want to do that?" you might be wondering.

One modern reason for doing this is that people just like to experiment. Harry Partch, for example, has invented various different kinds of temperaments including 43-, 37- and 39-tone scales because that's what he likes to do.

The historical reason "why people might want to do that" is because 12TET - like just about everything else in music - is an invention designed to overcome a problem. So what's the problem?

OK, let's say it's about 1685 and you have a harpsichord. You can't tune it using a tuning fork because they haven't been invented yet (first tuning fork invented in 1711), so you do what any respectable musician does and tune by ear. So let's say you're playing something in D. You want to tune your harpsichord to the key of D. How do you do that? Well you might use a method derived from something like this ...

Take a piece of steel wire 1m long & stretch it between two bridges, like this. Pluck the string and it makes a sound. Awesome. What if we want an octave higher? No problem - hold the string down exactly halfway along. Octaves involve halving or doubling the length of a string. So the octaves of any given note will have length 1/2, or 2 (or 1/4, 1/8, 4, 8, &c.). What about 5ths? OK, move your finger along the string until you get to about 2/3 the length of the string. There's your fifth. The fourth? Again, no problem - that's 3/4 of the way along the string. What about a major third? That's 4/5ths of the length of the string. This method of tuning is called 'Just temperament'. More here.

So you use this method of ratio-division of a length of string (wire, pipe, &c) to tune your instrument to your starting note - D. Great. Now what happens if you want to play in the key of Eb? Well you start to play but the music sounds wrong; some of the intervals sound sharp and some sound flat. In fact it sounds bloody terrible. Why? Well, because the ratios of, say 2/3, 3/4 and 4/5 in relation to D don't produce the same notes as those same ratios in relation to the note Eb. The upshot being that when you switch from D to Eb the piece in D sounds in tune and the piece in Eb sounds really quite out of tune.

Well now, this is a problem isn't it? How do you go about sorting that out? Well if you've got time on your hands maybe you tune your harpsichord to Eb. You'll need a fair bit of time because your instrument probably has at least 36 keys. This is a) a pain in the arse and b) not very practical if you're giving a concert. So maybe you could create an instrument where each key is perfectly in tune? Sure, you can do that, but you end up with many, many keys on your instrument - have a look at the Enharmonic Harmonium of Bosanquet. OK, well maybe that's fine if you're playing the harpsichord, but what about a flute or a guitar, or what if you just want one keyboard that encompasses all keys? Well then what you have to do is figure out some method of tuning your instrument such that every key sounds mostly OK. The way you do this is to slightly alter every pitch except the octave so that they're not quite in tune, but not obviusly out of tune either. In other words you make every key sound least bad so that you can switch between them with ease and not get crunching dischords. This is what 12TET does. It makes every key sound least bad.

Here's some audio to explain the difference between Just and Equal temperament.

* 'Divide up the octave' = 'temperaments', so I could have said 'there are other temperaments though'.
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Old 09-26-2012, 08:21 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleepy__Head
Speak of the devil

*ping* *ping*

12-Tone Equal Temperament (abbr. 12TET) tuning consists of dividing an octave into twelve equal parts (clue's in the name - 12 tone, equal temperament).

There are other ways to divide up the octave though*. Some are equal and some are not equal. If you have an unequal division then you can easily get into a situation where C# != Db, D# != Eb, ... B# != C.

"But why the hell would anyone want to do that?" you might be wondering.

One modern reason for doing this is that people just like to experiment. Harry Partch, for example, has invented various different kinds of temperaments including 43-, 37- and 39-tone scales because that's what he likes to do.

The historical reason "why people might want to do that" is because 12TET - like just about everything else in music - is an invention designed to overcome a problem. So what's the problem?

OK, let's say it's about 1685 and you have a harpsichord. You can't tune it using a tuning fork because they haven't been invented yet (first tuning fork invented in 1711), so you do what any respectable musician does and tune by ear. So let's say you're playing something in D. You want to tune your harpsichord to the key of D. How do you do that? Well you might use a method derived from something like this ...

Take a piece of steel wire 1m long & stretch it between two bridges, like this. Pluck the string and it makes a sound. Awesome. What if we want an octave higher? No problem - hold the string down exactly halfway along. Octaves involve halving or doubling the length of a string. So the octaves of any given note will have length 1/2, or 2 (or 1/4, 1/8, 4, 8, &c.). What about 5ths? OK, move your finger along the string until you get to about 2/3 the length of the string. There's your fifth. The fourth? Again, no problem - that's 3/4 of the way along the string. What about a major third? That's 4/5ths of the length of the string. This method of tuning is called 'Just temperament'. More here.

So you use this method of ratio-division of a length of string (wire, pipe, &c) to tune your instrument to your starting note - D. Great. Now what happens if you want to play in the key of Eb? Well you start to play but the music sounds wrong; some of the intervals sound sharp and some sound flat. In fact it sounds bloody terrible. Why? Well, because the ratios of, say 2/3, 3/4 and 4/5 in relation to D don't produce the same notes as those same ratios in relation to the note Eb. The upshot being that when you switch from D to Eb the piece in D sounds in tune and the piece in Eb sounds really quite out of tune.

Well now, this is a problem isn't it? How do you go about sorting that out? Well if you've got time on your hands maybe you tune your harpsichord to Eb. You'll need a fair bit of time because your instrument probably has at least 36 keys. This is a) a pain in the arse and b) not very practical if you're giving a concert. So maybe you could create an instrument where each key is perfectly in tune? Sure, you can do that, but you end up with many, many keys on your instrument - have a look at the Enharmonic Harmonium of Bosanquet. OK, well maybe that's fine if you're playing the harpsichord, but what about a flute or a guitar, or what if you just want one keyboard that encompasses all keys? Well then what you have to do is figure out some method of tuning your instrument such that every key sounds mostly OK. The way you do this is to slightly alter every pitch except the octave so that they're not quite in tune, but not obviusly out of tune either. In other words you make every key sound least bad so that you can switch between them with ease and not get crunching dischords. This is what 12TET does. It makes every key sound least bad.

Here's some audio to explain the difference between Just and Equal temperament.

* 'Divide up the octave' = 'temperaments', so I could have said 'there are other temperaments though'.


thats cool Iv read all that shit before, Even if I use Read out of context you still knew what I ment. Just because I used #2 to do it doesn't make its entirely incorrect. B# and C are equivalents.

in fact I think some of you didn't realize they were equivalents. you gotta learn that before you learn how to put them into context.

yea I know you like calling people wrong but if you gotta explain sharps and flats does context hinder you? well yea be someones luck they don't realize untill they run into a double sharp. and get confused.

A## is not in context i doubt you will ever see it but if there was a double sharpened A its equivalent would be B.

teachers teach reading out of context. spell read or read which is which. you need definitions before you can use it.

its the same just as you said except i'm not jumping ahead into the context side of things. I'd appreciate a little more respect around here.

when I first learned theory the chromatic scale was written for me like this
1 #1/b2 2 #2/b3 3 4 #4/b5 5 #5/b6 6 #6/b7 7 I think thats right if its not its close enough to where you outta be able to see where im coming from weather my context was incorrect or not!
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Old 09-26-2012, 09:34 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by metalmetalhead
A## is not in context i doubt you will ever see it but if there was a double sharpened A its equivalent would be B.



Just had to sight read a piece yesterday in B major full of C## (or rather Cx). But if you wanna act like that doesn't exist, great. Less competition for me!
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Old 09-26-2012, 11:57 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by metalmetalhead
thats cool Iv read all that shit before, Even if I use Read out of context you still knew what I ment. Just because I used #2 to do it doesn't make its entirely incorrect. B# and C are equivalents.

in fact I think some of you didn't realize they were equivalents. you gotta learn that before you learn how to put them into context.

yea I know you like calling people wrong but if you gotta explain sharps and flats does context hinder you? well yea be someones luck they don't realize untill they run into a double sharp. and get confused.

A## is not in context i doubt you will ever see it but if there was a double sharpened A its equivalent would be B.

teachers teach reading out of context. spell read or read which is which. you need definitions before you can use it.

its the same just as you said except i'm not jumping ahead into the context side of things. I'd appreciate a little more respect around here.

when I first learned theory the chromatic scale was written for me like this
1 #1/b2 2 #2/b3 3 4 #4/b5 5 #5/b6 6 #6/b7 7 I think thats right if its not its close enough to where you outta be able to see where im coming from weather my context was incorrect or not!


Sure, but what good is it to teach something that is wrong with the intent to clear it up later on when you could just teach it correct to begin with?

Teachers teach "words" without context, but with the knowledge that they will one day be used in context. It's not a seperation, but rather a progression towards an end goal that requires steps, and if you don't fully understand each step then you ultimately will never understand the big picture. This subforum is filled with threads from people asking questions about advanced topics they don't understand, and most of the time it's not that they can't comprehend the topic, but that they fail to fully understand the fundamental things that compose it.

Like now, you don't see why you're wrong because you don't fully understand intervals and why there is a difference between sharps and flats. Don't you think that if there wasn't a difference then one or the other would've gone away by now?

Don't take me the wrong way, I'm not calling you out to poke fun at you, I only want to help you realize how misinforming your advice is. If you want to garner respect on this forum then pick up a theory book and learn the error of your ways and stop giving shady advice based on your opinions.
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Old 09-26-2012, 03:18 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by metalmetalhead
thats cool Iv read all that shit before, Even if I use Read out of context you still knew what I ment. Just because I used #2 to do it doesn't make its entirely incorrect. B# and C are equivalents.

in fact I think some of you didn't realize they were equivalents. you gotta learn that before you learn how to put them into context.

yea I know you like calling people wrong but if you gotta explain sharps and flats does context hinder you? well yea be someones luck they don't realize untill they run into a double sharp. and get confused.

A## is not in context i doubt you will ever see it but if there was a double sharpened A its equivalent would be B.

teachers teach reading out of context. spell read or read which is which. you need definitions before you can use it.

its the same just as you said except i'm not jumping ahead into the context side of things. I'd appreciate a little more respect around here.

when I first learned theory the chromatic scale was written for me like this
1 #1/b2 2 #2/b3 3 4 #4/b5 5 #5/b6 6 #6/b7 7 I think thats right if its not its close enough to where you outta be able to see where im coming from weather my context was incorrect or not!

Yeah, equal frequencies but the interval between A and C is always a third, not a second. If you look at sheet music, you'll understand it easier. On the sheet an interval is always the same distance between two notes. So a second is always a second and never a third. And you can always find the note B on the same line. So if you look at sheet music, B# is never C and sharp second is never minor third.

You could think the same about diminished 7th chords (built like this: 1, b3, b5, bb7): E dim has exactly the same frets (notice: I didn't say notes) played as G or Bb/A# or C#/Db dim. But they are different chords. E dim: E, G, Bb, Db. G dim: G, Bb, Db, Fb. A# dim: A#, C#, E, G. C# dim: C#, E, G, Bb. You might not notice any difference between them unless you look at sheet music. When you analyze music, they are different. It's all about context.

For example if you have a song with chord progression: Am, F, C, G, it's very common to have a G#dim chord after the G chord. So the progression would be Am, F, C, G, G#dim. You have a chromatic bass so it would be stupid to write the G# dim as B or C# or E dim (that are technically the same chord and share the same frets on guitar or keys on piano). That's because the bass line is clearly chromatic (G->G#->A). When you analyze chord progressions, you'll see which dim chord you are using (they are usually used when bass moves chromatically to the next chord).
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Old 09-27-2012, 07:51 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by metalmetalhead
B# and C are equivalents.


Not quite - they're enharmonic equivalents - i.e. different note-names indicate the same pitch.

That doesn't make them 'the same thing' because the note-names are related to keys, so even though they indicate the same pitch they don't indicate the same key.

For example: If you're playing in the key of C Major then a B# might indicate that you're about to (or are in the middle of) a modulation to C# Major. If you're in C# Major then a C natural might indicate a modulation to C.

Notating C as B# while staying in the key of C probably just indicates a problem in the notator's understanding.
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Old 09-28-2012, 02:38 PM   #30
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Notating C as B# while staying in the key of C probably just indicates a problem in the notator's understanding.


well Im self taught theres your answer. I understand that C is 3 notes away from A
so its a 3rd away, Duh.

But It took awhile...I had to learn what the note names where how many there were. What sharps and flats were the chromatic scale the major scale Then intervals.

so say what you want. 2#b3 is how I learned it. you would clearly never use it in a scale formula. I mean iv never thought about it before but iv never seen 2# in use its only been on any kind interval sheet or chromatic scale.
1#/b 2#/b 3 4#/b 5#/b 6#/b 7 1 . it took a little more then just this before I understood. but thats basically it.

notice your whole numbers 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1 see your semitones 3 4, E and F . 7 1, B and C. see the major scale pattern C D E F G A B C. interval hint. see what a flat 5 sounds like. or you might hear "flatten the 3rd".

It takes a lot for someone to learn theory you gotta really want to. and while mine is not entirely correct its not entirely incorrect either. I do my best with what I know as you can see.

some have said the chromatic scale is useless its just the chromatic scale. well the truth is everything is within the chromatic scale and the names of the notes is the hint to wisdom. If your learning without a teacher I doubt anyone could explain the vast power through the chromatic scale without deviating from diatonic formulas.

another thing is I learned theory to help analyze my music and expand my horizons.

Don't get me wrong I agree with you I doubt anything you say will really go against..music theory. theres alot to talk about before getting into proper notation.
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