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Old 09-25-2012, 05:08 PM   #21
Dodeka
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Right, all nontrivial intervals appear in one of two different varieties within the diatonic scale, and major and minor are as good of terms as any to distinguish them. This applies to the fourth and fifth as well, but their variants only show up once, so their more common forms are traditionally elevated to perfect status.

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Old 09-25-2012, 05:48 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by J-Dawg158
My 2:

Everyone seems to be in agreement that the 7th interval should be divided into major/minor. Well the 2nd interval is the inversion of a 7th, so doesn't it stand to reason that it should correspond to the same major/minor division?
Part of this issue is couched in idiomatic expression, and not anything much deeper than that.

My normal "vernacular" expression of the 7th interval is a natural 7th or flat 7th. However, when I'm being lazy, I call the chord where the b7 is always found, a "V7", and I expect I'll be understood by a majority of reasonably well versed musicians.

However, I would call the distance between a natural 7th and the octave root, "a minor 2nd".

The first post of this thread was phrased a bit antagonistically, and as happens somewhat historically here, (IMO), "troll threads get the most airplay".

Last edited by Captaincranky : 09-25-2012 at 05:51 PM.
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Old 09-25-2012, 06:05 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Captaincranky
The first post of this thread was phrased a bit antagonistically

No it wasn't.
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Old 09-25-2012, 06:07 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captaincranky
Part of this issue is couched in idiomatic expression, and not anything much deeper than that.

My normal "vernacular" expression of the 7th interval is a natural 7th or flat 7th. However, when I'm being lazy, I call the chord where the b7 is always found, a "V7", and I expect I'll be understood by a majority of reasonably well versed musicians.

However, I would call the distance between a natural 7th and the octave root, "a minor 2nd".

The first post of this thread was phrased a bit antagonistically, and as happens somewhat historically here, (IMO), "troll threads get the most airplay".


he just said that

how the hell have you mastered the art of making a post saying nothing with nothing but a 9th grade vocabulary and a terrible sense of diction at your disposal
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Old 09-25-2012, 06:11 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Hail
he just said that

how the hell have you mastered the art of making a post saying nothing with nothing but a 9th grade vocabulary and a terrible sense of diction at your disposal
Take your post to anyone familiar with the English language. They'll tell you that it's a run on sentence, improperly punctuated and capitalized, and it doesn't actually meet 9th grade standards.
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Old 09-25-2012, 06:13 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Captaincranky
Take this post to anyone familiar with the English language. They'll tell you that it's a run on sentence, improperly punctuated and capitalized, and it doesn't actually meet 9th grade standards.


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Old 09-25-2012, 06:16 PM   #27
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WUZZUP HOMES... I see we dun gotz us seff a new kutsie pi bideo.

But what does it have to do with the topic?
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Old 09-26-2012, 01:20 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Crazyedd123
Why do we refer to the half-tone interval as a minor 2nd when it doesn't actually appear in the major or minor scale?
As in, both the major and minor scale have a minor 2nd as the first interval. There's no minor 2nd unless you base it from a mode.

I mean, it's not like I don't know a bit about scales and theory, but it just seems like an odd thing to do.


The system by which we numerically label scale degrees is based on the major scale. 4, 5th, and 8va are perfect - the rest of the intervals are major. Thusly, if anything major interval is compressed it becomes "minor". If a perfect interval becomes compressed its "diminished" if its raised it's "augmented".

There are many musical terms that mean different things in different contexts...you seem to be oddly taking issues with one thats of little to no consequence. But to take the bait...phrygian has a minor 2nd, and it's a minor scale.
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Old 09-26-2012, 06:46 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by chronowarp
But to take the bait...phrygian has a minor 2nd, and it's a minor scale.
You bet! And the minor second makes it even more minor!. (Assuming such a thing is even possible)...

As a side note, I'm glad I'm not the only one who interpreted the OP as, "bait"...
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Old 09-27-2012, 08:20 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazyedd123
Why do we refer to the half-tone interval as a minor 2nd when it doesn't actually appear in the major or minor scale?


Sure they occur:

III > IV, VII > I - Major
II > III, V > VI - Natural Minor
II > III, V > VI, VII > I - Harmonic Minor
II > III, VII > I - Ascending Melodic Minor

even if they don't occur as intervals from the Tonic.

As for why they're called Minor Seconds - it's because Major is Latin for 'Large', and Minor is Latin for 'Smaller'. A minor second (in fact any minor interval) is minor because it's smaller than the larger Major interval, not because it has anything to do with the Major / Minor scale.

I don't doubt that it's handy for people to think of Major IIIrds and Minor IIIrds as the reason why things are major and minor, but that ain't the reason why those intervals are so named.
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Old 09-27-2012, 06:01 PM   #31
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Why can't it be called an augmented 1st
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Old 09-27-2012, 06:18 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Sleepy__Head
As for why they're called Minor Seconds - it's because Major is Latin for 'Large', and Minor is Latin for 'Smaller'. A minor second (in fact any minor interval) is minor because it's smaller than the larger Major interval, not because it has anything to do with the Major / Minor scale.
Indeed! In the sky we have "Canis Major", (big dog_, and Canis Minor", Little dog.

And...., in darker, muskier places, we occasionally encounter, "Labia Majora", and "Labia Minora".....
Quote:
Originally Posted by skilly1
Why can't it be called an augmented 1st
Well it can, silly goose! YOU can call it anything you like. Just make sure not to wimp out. and vehemently defend your right to do so, through the seven pages of MT thread that are sure to result.

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Old 09-27-2012, 06:45 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by skilly1
Why can't it be called an augmented 1st


Are you really playing the root note (the I note) of the key or scale if you're not playing the note of resolution?
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Old 09-27-2012, 06:56 PM   #34
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First of all, honestly, always remember that a lot of these naming conventions are historical, and there isn't particularly a "why" which is relevant to the way we play music, but the names persist. Asking "why is this called that?" can take you down a wasteful rabbit hole.

That being said, bear in mind that "major" "minor" and "perfect" are names which have their origins in sounds. Major sounds emotionally one way, minor another, perfect is neutral.

A major second is called a major second because it's a second (eg adjacent letters in the alphabet) which has major emotional qualities. A minor second is an interval of a second (adjacent letters) which has minor emotional qualities.

We sometimes refer to major as "happy" and minor as "sad" but those are metaphors used to help people hear the difference. As you gain experience, you'll realize that minor doesn't sound sad, it sounds minor.

As somebody else pointed out, a perfect interval inverts to a perfect interval, a major to a minor, and a minor to a major.

Put the above facts together and it's abundantly clear why a major 2nd is called a major second. But this is one of the rare cases where "why is it called that?" is easily answerable in non-historical terms.
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Old 09-27-2012, 07:08 PM   #35
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^It's funny that you warned against a going down a rabbit hole and then went tumbling down a particularly winding one yourself by assigning certain emotional qualities to intervals that simply aren't there. Interval names refer to distances between notes. Minor is less distance than major, end of. As to why they're called what they are, as you said, it's a historical naming convention that isn't particularly important.
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Old 09-27-2012, 07:10 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by jazz_rock_feel
^It's funny that you warned against a going down a rabbit hole and then went tumbling down a particularly winding one yourself by assigning certain emotional qualities to intervals that simply aren't there. Interval names refer to distances between notes. Minor is less distance than major, end of. As to why they're called what they are, as you said, it's a historical naming convention that isn't particularly important.

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Old 09-27-2012, 07:52 PM   #37
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This got weird...
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Old 09-28-2012, 06:02 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Captaincranky
And...., in darker, muskier places, we occasionally encounter, "Labia Majora", and "Labia Minora"


Major and Minor axes of an eclipse, Major & Minor arcs, Major and Minor challenges, ...

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Quote:
Originally Posted by skilly1
Why can't it be called an augmented 1st


That's like asking "Why can't the moon be called 'Nigel'?". The answer is: It can be called Nigel (no-one's stopping you), but if you want to be understood by other astronomers (and you don't want them to laugh at you behind your back) you'd be better off adopting the more-or-less universally accepted term for the celestial object. It's just the same in music. If you want you can name each interval individually with your favourite pet names ('Marge', 'Betsy', 'Hilary', ...). No-one will understand you and it will make communication with other musicians really difficult but if it makes you happy go right ahead.

If what you mean is "Why do we say minor 2nd and not augmented 1st?" the reason is because intervals are named by counting the number of pitch-names, inclusive of the start and end pitch-names. The only pitch-names are A, B, C, D, E, F and G (unless you're European - don't go there) - C# is still counted as C, Cb is still counted as C. So - from A to C we count 'A', 'B', 'C' - three pitch-names, so that's a 3rd (a minor 3rd). From A to C# we count 'A', 'B', 'C#' - three pitch-names, so that's a 3rd (a major 3rd).

Coming back to your question, then: An augmented 1st contains one pitch-name, while a minor 2nd contains two. For example:

C - C# - we count 'C' to 'C' - that's one pitch-name so it's a first (or a 'unison') and because one of those C's is sharp it's an augmented first (or augmented unison);
C - Db - we count 'C' to 'D' - that's two pitch-names so it's a second, and because the D is flattened it's a minor 2nd.

Maybe that strikes you as mad, maybe it isn't the best system, but that's the system we have (for a variety of historical reasons) and if you want to talk musician that's just the way you have to talk.
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Old 09-28-2012, 11:46 AM   #39
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Ok thanks,

I'm reading a book on chord tone soloing, i was struggling to understand the interval bit. In theory, the quality of the interval seems confusing to grasp for me, but the interval distance makes sense and I understand it practically,
Like you said, that's the system used between musicians and is the language used to discuss intervals between musicians, that's all I wanted to know actually!



Ps: why is my signature link showing the actual video instead of just the link, anyone , it's never done that before,

Thanks
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Old 09-28-2012, 12:10 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by skilly1
Ok thanks,

I'm reading a book on chord tone soloing, i was struggling to understand the interval bit. In theory, the quality of the interval seems confusing to grasp for me, but the interval distance makes sense and I understand it practically,
Like you said, that's the system used between musicians and is the language used to discuss intervals between musicians, that's all I wanted to know actually!



Ps: why is my signature link showing the actual video instead of just the link, anyone , it's never done that before,

Thanks


The why's of intervals make much better sense when reading them from standard notation, which like sleepy head said makes it more of a historic or traditional kind of thing.

& apparently UG is now able to embed youtube vids.
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