wolflen

very strange argument...non-functional blues...i love it....did anyone tell miles...does gershwin know...

wolf

chronowarp

Whats strange about it? I mean it's a pretty clear distinction. Blues doesn't operate in the same manner as key based music - harmonically or melodically.

I've been forced to morph my argument to such a pragmatic, exclusive reduction purely for the case of making the distinction clear to the OP, since alanHB is equally fervent in claiming that a blues tonality is merely "accidentals in a major key". I think anyone here who understands the concept pretty clearly understands the message I'm trying to communicate, albeit not very eloquently.

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mrkeka

chromatic notes, alterations, accidents, genre-specific melodic patterns... Indeed, no key based music has these.

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chronowarp

I'd love to hear some classical period music where the crux of the melodic vocabulary is a nuanced alteration of a variable 3rd/7th that eventually "resolves" to a stable dom7.

the devices you're talking about occur vertically in functionally driven key based music...none of that is happening in a blues. Find me a bach chorale where he lays a blue third over a dom7...I'm sure he'd use a m3 in a major key, but it'd be directly related to what was happening vertically at that metric moment in the piece, and that is the exact difference that's at the core of the issue.

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griffRG7321

a #2 dissonance resolving to the major third is used all the time in classical music.

Blues is tonal, a lot of Debussy is tonal, even Berg's piano sonata is to an extent. Get over it.

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chronowarp

it's not a dissonance in a blues...its a variable pitch. it's microtonal.

it's also not functioning as a #2, because the blues third and 7th aren't chromatic alterations that exist vertically in the music.

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jazz_rock_feel

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I finally updated my SoundCloud with more recent pieces. Check it.

Hydra150

cool

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mrkeka

You bastard!
You just made me laugh in the middle of my fiance's theatre class

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Sleepy__Head

Can you explain, clearly, how I7 IV7 V7 in a functional harmony context differs from I7 IV7 V7 in a blues? Don't just re-iterate the point; expand on it, add some flesh to the bones, substantiate your claim.

From what I've read so far I get the distinct impression you think functional harmony = classical music. Nothing could be further from the truth. Functional harmony has to do with how harmony functions in a tonal context, not how harmony functions in a classical context and in no other context.




Who said anything about part writing?

You're confusing the scale with the genre. The blues genre possesses other characteristics besides the blues scale, such as lyrics, bass-lines, instruments, styles of performance and so on.

Play the chords I7, IV7, V7 on a guitar in a country style.
Now play a blues scale over them.
Hey presto! Hank Williams.

Play the chords I7, IV7, V7 in a big band style.
Now play a blues scale over them.
Hey presto! Glenn Miller.

Play the chords I7, IV7, V7 on a guitar in a rock style.
Now play a blues scale over them.
Hey presto! ZZ Top.

Play the chords I7, IV7, V7 on the piano in a rock 'n' roll style.
Now play a blues scale over them.
Hey presto! Chuck Berry.

The blues scale alone doesn't define the blues genre.

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Sleepy__Head

Bach's Baroque period, not Classical period. Mozart, Haydn, early Beethoven are Classical period.

What do you mean by "a variable 3rd/7th"?

If the dom7 were stable the progression would resolve (finish on) the V7. But dom7 in the 8-, 12- & 24-bar blues progressions finish on the I, and blues music almost without exception finishes on the I:

"Too Broke To Spend The Night" (Buddy Guy)
"Little Red Rooster" (Howlin' Wolf)
"Got The Blues (Can't Be Satisfied)" (Mississippi John Hurt)
"Backwater Blues" (Bessie Smith)

And - top cap it all - the Axe-fall blues progression (I IV bIII) doesn't even have a dom7 in the progression and it's still a blues.

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mdc

Here's a Robben Ford blues that I transcribed. Is this functional?

6/8 time

Bb7 / F7♯9 / Bb7 / Am7 Ab7♯11

Gm7 / C9 / Gm7 / Dbdim7

Cm7 Dm7 / Ebmaj7 Em7b5 / F11 / F11

Very moody sounding, very nice.

Here are some voicings to use so you can play it.

Ab7♯11, Dbdim7, Em7b5, F11

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Sweet

Sleepy__Head

Yup



So you've got I IV I V, and IV VI II V I.

Looks like two standard progressions with a couple of substitutions and a fair amount of chord embellishment to me.

cf. Richard J. Scott's Chord Progressions for Songwriters

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mdc

K, let's analyze this the right way.

Bars 1-3: I - V - I

Bar 4: ii-V (bII7) approach to VI

Bars 5-7: ii - V - ii hints at the dominant key but never resolves. (Another view is vi - V/V - vi)

Bar 8: TTS

Bars 9-12: All diatonic (ii - iii - IV - V) bar the Em7b5 which is a passing chord.

Well, fuck me. I guess blues is functional.

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Sleepy__Head

1) Duh, yeah Bb > F = I V, not I IV. And all the rest is a crock of shit.

Sorry - I'm half asleep today

2) Well hey, who'da though it! Blues is functional, huh? I guess we all learned something today then!

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AlanHB

There's something very Twilight zone about this thread.

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Sleepy__Head

Maybe it's just me, but does anyone else keep having a recurring dream about non-functional blues harmony?

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chronowarp

the I is a dom7...even if it's not played it's stylistically implied. You're 'resolving' to a dom7, because the I is a dom7...therefore...it's a stable dom7. Did you read what I wrote?

variable 3rd & 7th...you 3rd and 7th you're aiming for in a blues over the chord is microtonal. The point here is that someone saying that bending a the m3 microtonally over a chord is a "#2 accidental resolving to the M3" is completely inaccurate in terms of what's actually happening musically. It's not an issue of resolution - the pitch itself is variable...the third is flexible and malleable.

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chronowarp

Ya, you're right, but I don't think that was the crux of my point even if I did say it. I forced myself to compartmentalize my argument in order to make a clear distinction between what's perceived as a blues tonality versus a "major key", because those two constructs are not the same - aurally, or functionally.

I thought it was very important for the OP to understand that, and alanhbs 'explanation' of "LOL ITS JUST ACCIDENTALS" was dangerously misleading, IMO.

I'm glad that we're all very interested in taking reductionist arguments to the extreme and nitpicking them to the point of missing the broader, more central point that I'm sure we all agree on 100%. Gotta love it.

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