Go Back   UG Community @ Ultimate-Guitar.Com > Music > Musician Talk
User Name  
Password
Search:

Reply
Old 09-27-2012, 02:16 PM   #21
wolflen
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: los angeles
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronowarp
I IV V in a functional harmonic context is not the same as
I7 IV7 V7 in a blues.

I'd really love to hear the results of you playing BLUEZ LIX over a functional I-IV-V that is clearly actually in a major key. You're gonna love them "accidentals" and you'll definitely add that "blues sound" in doing so!

You should start incorporating bluez licks in 4 part writings when you do a I IV6 I64 V7.


very strange argument...non-functional blues...i love it....did anyone tell miles...does gershwin know...

wolf

Last edited by wolflen : 09-27-2012 at 02:18 PM.
wolflen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2012, 02:21 PM   #22
chronowarp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolflen
very strange argument...non-functional blues...i love it....did anyone tell miles...does gershwin know...

wolf

Whats strange about it? I mean it's a pretty clear distinction. Blues doesn't operate in the same manner as key based music - harmonically or melodically.

I've been forced to morph my argument to such a pragmatic, exclusive reduction purely for the case of making the distinction clear to the OP, since alanHB is equally fervent in claiming that a blues tonality is merely "accidentals in a major key". I think anyone here who understands the concept pretty clearly understands the message I'm trying to communicate, albeit not very eloquently.
__________________
Check out my band Socrates and the Lava Gods

Last edited by chronowarp : 09-27-2012 at 02:23 PM.
chronowarp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2012, 02:23 PM   #23
mrkeka
Lost in Translation
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: São Paulo
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronowarp
Whats strange about it? I mean it's a pretty clear distinction. Blues doesn't operate in the same manner as key based music - harmonically or melodically.


chromatic notes, alterations, accidents, genre-specific melodic patterns... Indeed, no key based music has these.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiaoxi
The Byzantine scale was useful until the Ottoman scale came around and totally annihilated it.
mrkeka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2012, 02:25 PM   #24
chronowarp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrkeka
chromatic notes, alterations, accidents, genre-specific melodic patterns... Indeed, no key based music has these.


I'd love to hear some classical period music where the crux of the melodic vocabulary is a nuanced alteration of a variable 3rd/7th that eventually "resolves" to a stable dom7.

the devices you're talking about occur vertically in functionally driven key based music...none of that is happening in a blues. Find me a bach chorale where he lays a blue third over a dom7...I'm sure he'd use a m3 in a major key, but it'd be directly related to what was happening vertically at that metric moment in the piece, and that is the exact difference that's at the core of the issue.
__________________
Check out my band Socrates and the Lava Gods

Last edited by chronowarp : 09-27-2012 at 02:29 PM.
chronowarp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2012, 06:39 PM   #25
griffRG7321
Forever Bulking
 
griffRG7321's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Darkplace Hospital
a #2 dissonance resolving to the major third is used all the time in classical music.

Blues is tonal, a lot of Debussy is tonal, even Berg's piano sonata is to an extent. Get over it.
__________________
Quote:
Mario 'Big Dawg' Williams: "I come to you, venerable master, in order to be introduced to the rules and principles of music"

Barbeesha Latoya Jackson: "Awh hell naw mutha fuka, u wanna learn da art of composition all up in here?
griffRG7321 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2012, 06:48 PM   #26
chronowarp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
it's not a dissonance in a blues...its a variable pitch. it's microtonal.

it's also not functioning as a #2, because the blues third and 7th aren't chromatic alterations that exist vertically in the music.
__________________
Check out my band Socrates and the Lava Gods

Last edited by chronowarp : 09-27-2012 at 06:54 PM.
chronowarp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2012, 06:50 PM   #27
jazz_rock_feel
Banned
 
jazz_rock_feel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
jazz_rock_feel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2012, 08:30 PM   #28
Hydra150
not so cowardly
 
Hydra150's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Scotland
Quote:
Originally Posted by liampje
it's not a dissonance in a blues...its a variable pitch. it's microtonal.

it's also not functioning as a #2, because the blues third and 7th aren't chromatic alterations that exist vertically in the music.

cool
__________________
But boys will be boys and girls have those eyes
that'll cut you to ribbons, sometimes
and all you can do is just wait by the moon
and bleed if it's what she says you ought to do
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip_pepper
I'm not gonna post pics of my hot mom.
Hydra150 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2012, 09:19 PM   #29
mrkeka
Lost in Translation
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: São Paulo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hydra150
cool

You bastard!
You just made me laugh in the middle of my fiance's theatre class
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiaoxi
The Byzantine scale was useful until the Ottoman scale came around and totally annihilated it.
mrkeka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 05:31 AM   #30
Sleepy__Head
A cornucopia of trivia
 
Sleepy__Head's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Butt****, SY
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronowarp
I IV V in a functional harmonic context is not the same as I7 IV7 V7 in a blues.


Can you explain, clearly, how I7 IV7 V7 in a functional harmony context differs from I7 IV7 V7 in a blues? Don't just re-iterate the point; expand on it, add some flesh to the bones, substantiate your claim.

From what I've read so far I get the distinct impression you think functional harmony = classical music. Nothing could be further from the truth. Functional harmony has to do with how harmony functions in a tonal context, not how harmony functions in a classical context and in no other context.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chronowarp
I'd really love to hear the results of you playing BLUEZ LIX over a functional I-IV-V that is clearly actually in a major key.

You're gonna love them "accidentals" and you'll definitely add that "blues sound" in doing so!

You should start incorporating bluez licks in 4 part writings when you do a I IV6 I64 V7.


Who said anything about part writing?

You're confusing the scale with the genre. The blues genre possesses other characteristics besides the blues scale, such as lyrics, bass-lines, instruments, styles of performance and so on.

Play the chords I7, IV7, V7 on a guitar in a country style.
Now play a blues scale over them.
Hey presto! Hank Williams.

Play the chords I7, IV7, V7 in a big band style.
Now play a blues scale over them.
Hey presto! Glenn Miller.

Play the chords I7, IV7, V7 on a guitar in a rock style.
Now play a blues scale over them.
Hey presto! ZZ Top.

Play the chords I7, IV7, V7 on the piano in a rock 'n' roll style.
Now play a blues scale over them.
Hey presto! Chuck Berry.

The blues scale alone doesn't define the blues genre.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hail
oh shut up with that /mu/ bullshit. fidget house shouldn't even be a genre, why in the world would it deserve its own subgenres you twat

Last edited by Sleepy__Head : 09-28-2012 at 06:37 AM.
Sleepy__Head is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 05:45 AM   #31
Sleepy__Head
A cornucopia of trivia
 
Sleepy__Head's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Butt****, SY
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronowarp
I'd love to hear some classical period music where the crux of the melodic vocabulary is a nuanced alteration of a variable 3rd/7th that eventually "resolves" to a stable dom7.


Bach's Baroque period, not Classical period. Mozart, Haydn, early Beethoven are Classical period.

What do you mean by "a variable 3rd/7th"?

If the dom7 were stable the progression would resolve (finish on) the V7. But dom7 in the 8-, 12- & 24-bar blues progressions finish on the I, and blues music almost without exception finishes on the I:

"Too Broke To Spend The Night" (Buddy Guy)
"Little Red Rooster" (Howlin' Wolf)
"Got The Blues (Can't Be Satisfied)" (Mississippi John Hurt)
"Backwater Blues" (Bessie Smith)

And - top cap it all - the Axe-fall blues progression (I IV bIII) doesn't even have a dom7 in the progression and it's still a blues.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hail
oh shut up with that /mu/ bullshit. fidget house shouldn't even be a genre, why in the world would it deserve its own subgenres you twat
Sleepy__Head is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 06:08 AM   #32
mdc
UG's Mr Chord Man
 
mdc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Here's a Robben Ford blues that I transcribed. Is this functional?

6/8 time

Bb7 / F7♯9 / Bb7 / Am7 Ab7♯11

Gm7 / C9 / Gm7 / Dbdim7

Cm7 Dm7 / Ebmaj7 Em7b5 / F11 / F11

Very moody sounding, very nice.

Here are some voicings to use so you can play it.

Ab7♯11, Dbdim7, Em7b5, F11
Code:
------- -3-5-8-8 -5-3-7-8 -4-5-8-8 ---4-7-8 -4-----
mdc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 06:50 AM   #33
Sleepy__Head
A cornucopia of trivia
 
Sleepy__Head's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Butt****, SY
Yup

Code:
Bb > F > Bb > Am7 I > IV > I > VII = II (in G) = I > IV > I > V (= II in G) (the VII is a sub for V) G > C > G > Db I > IV > I > VII = I > IV > I > V (the VII is a sub for V) C > D > Eb > E > F IV > VI > bII > II > I = IV > VI > bII > V > I = IV > VI > II > V > I (II is a sub for V and bII is a sub for II)


So you've got I IV I V, and IV VI II V I.

Looks like two standard progressions with a couple of substitutions and a fair amount of chord embellishment to me.

cf. Richard J. Scott's Chord Progressions for Songwriters
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hail
oh shut up with that /mu/ bullshit. fidget house shouldn't even be a genre, why in the world would it deserve its own subgenres you twat
Sleepy__Head is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 07:43 AM   #34
mdc
UG's Mr Chord Man
 
mdc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
K, let's analyze this the right way.

Bars 1-3: I - V - I

Bar 4: ii-V (bII7) approach to VI

Bars 5-7: ii - V - ii hints at the dominant key but never resolves. (Another view is vi - V/V - vi)

Bar 8: TTS

Bars 9-12: All diatonic (ii - iii - IV - V) bar the Em7b5 which is a passing chord.

Well, fuck me. I guess blues is functional.

Last edited by mdc : 09-28-2012 at 07:45 AM.
mdc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 07:57 AM   #35
Sleepy__Head
A cornucopia of trivia
 
Sleepy__Head's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Butt****, SY
1) Duh, yeah Bb > F = I V, not I IV. And all the rest is a crock of shit.

Sorry - I'm half asleep today

2) Well hey, who'da though it! Blues is functional, huh? I guess we all learned something today then!
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hail
oh shut up with that /mu/ bullshit. fidget house shouldn't even be a genre, why in the world would it deserve its own subgenres you twat

Last edited by Sleepy__Head : 09-28-2012 at 08:02 AM.
Sleepy__Head is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 09:04 AM   #36
AlanHB
Godin's Resident Groupie
 
AlanHB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Canberra, Australia
There's something very Twilight zone about this thread.
__________________
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
AlanHB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 10:06 AM   #37
Sleepy__Head
A cornucopia of trivia
 
Sleepy__Head's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Butt****, SY
Maybe it's just me, but does anyone else keep having a recurring dream about non-functional blues harmony?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hail
oh shut up with that /mu/ bullshit. fidget house shouldn't even be a genre, why in the world would it deserve its own subgenres you twat
Sleepy__Head is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 12:36 PM   #38
chronowarp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleepy__Head
Bach's Baroque period, not Classical period. Mozart, Haydn, early Beethoven are Classical period.

What do you mean by "a variable 3rd/7th"?

If the dom7 were stable the progression would resolve (finish on) the V7. But dom7 in the 8-, 12- & 24-bar blues progressions finish on the I, and blues music almost without exception finishes on the I:

"Too Broke To Spend The Night" (Buddy Guy)
"Little Red Rooster" (Howlin' Wolf)
"Got The Blues (Can't Be Satisfied)" (Mississippi John Hurt)
"Backwater Blues" (Bessie Smith)

And - top cap it all - the Axe-fall blues progression (I IV bIII) doesn't even have a dom7 in the progression and it's still a blues.

the I is a dom7...even if it's not played it's stylistically implied. You're 'resolving' to a dom7, because the I is a dom7...therefore...it's a stable dom7. Did you read what I wrote?

variable 3rd & 7th...you 3rd and 7th you're aiming for in a blues over the chord is microtonal. The point here is that someone saying that bending a the m3 microtonally over a chord is a "#2 accidental resolving to the M3" is completely inaccurate in terms of what's actually happening musically. It's not an issue of resolution - the pitch itself is variable...the third is flexible and malleable.
__________________
Check out my band Socrates and the Lava Gods

Last edited by chronowarp : 09-28-2012 at 12:41 PM.
chronowarp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 12:38 PM   #39
chronowarp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdc
K, let's analyze this the right way.

Bars 1-3: I - V - I

Bar 4: ii-V (bII7) approach to VI

Bars 5-7: ii - V - ii hints at the dominant key but never resolves. (Another view is vi - V/V - vi)

Bar 8: TTS

Bars 9-12: All diatonic (ii - iii - IV - V) bar the Em7b5 which is a passing chord.

Well, fuck me. I guess blues is functional.

Ya, you're right, but I don't think that was the crux of my point even if I did say it. I forced myself to compartmentalize my argument in order to make a clear distinction between what's perceived as a blues tonality versus a "major key", because those two constructs are not the same - aurally, or functionally.

I thought it was very important for the OP to understand that, and alanhbs 'explanation' of "LOL ITS JUST ACCIDENTALS" was dangerously misleading, IMO.

I'm glad that we're all very interested in taking reductionist arguments to the extreme and nitpicking them to the point of missing the broader, more central point that I'm sure we all agree on 100%. Gotta love it.
__________________
Check out my band Socrates and the Lava Gods

Last edited by chronowarp : 09-28-2012 at 12:51 PM.
chronowarp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 01:51 PM   #40
wolflen
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: los angeles
Ya, you're right, but I don't think that was the crux of my point even if I did say it. I forced myself to compartmentalize my argument in order to make a clear distinction between what's perceived as a blues tonality versus a "major key", because those two constructs are not the same - aurally, or functionally.

does charlie parker know this is a non functional blues progression...

Cmaj7 Bm7-5 E7-9 Am7 D7 Gm7 C7 Fmaj7 Fm7 Bb7
Em7 A7 Ebm7 Ab7 Dm7 G7 Cmaj7 Am7 Dm7 G7 Cmaj7

blues does not have to be just dominate 7th based chords..for x#of measures each..but the tradional 3 chord version seems to upset your view of harmonic values..and you infer that these 3 chords are somehow not part of diatonic harmony..(lets say 20th century harmony..so we dont have to compare classical harmonic values with todays) the progression above is a classic parker approach to the blues...and a blues it is..it shows the "hidden chords" that are in a 3 chord version of the blues..

yep its diatonic harmony plus a kick in the ass...!!!!

Last edited by wolflen : 09-28-2012 at 01:53 PM.
wolflen is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:02 AM.

Forum Archives / About / Terms of Use / Advertise / Contact / Ultimate-Guitar.Com © 2014
Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.