Go Back   UG Community @ Ultimate-Guitar.Com > Music > Musician Talk
User Name  
Password
Search:

Reply
Old 09-28-2012, 03:30 PM   #41
MaggaraMarine
Slapping the bass.
 
MaggaraMarine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Finland
I would say that the b7 notes of those chords are just color notes. They don't really function as V7 chords. And really, the scale doesn't define the key. You can play whatever notes over a chord progression and the key doesn't change until the progression changes to something else. And I think the chords have the b7 note because of the melodies that add the b7 note. So the harmony really is I - IV - I - V - IV - I. And it resolves to the I chord. It's just the notes you play over that progression that makes it sound bluesy. But scales don't define the key, the chords do.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Charvel So Cal
Ibanez Blazer
Digitech RP355
MXR Micro Chorus
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Hartke HyDrive 210c
MaggaraMarine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 06:14 PM   #42
AlanHB
Godin's Resident Groupie
 
AlanHB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Canberra, Australia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronowarp
I thought it was very important for the OP to understand that, and alanhbs 'explanation' of "LOL ITS JUST ACCIDENTALS" was dangerously misleading, IMO.


And you think this because it doesn't explain the quasi-modal, non-functional tonality of the blues.
__________________
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
AlanHB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 06:23 PM   #43
chronowarp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanHB
And you think this because it doesn't explain the quasi-modal, non-functional tonality of the blues.

No, I think it because ... a major key doesn't have a tonic dom7 chord. Nor does a major key operate around outlining and microtonally manipulating the m3/M3,7th (and others) over the I, IV and V.

These discussions get so pedantic and stupid sometimes, so this make this really simple:

Boom, you're a guitar teacher.
You've just taught a student about diatonic harmony, and the concept of major/minor keys. You make it clear how chords are derived from scales, and the notes in a particular melody are usually associated w/ & relate specifically to the chord they occur over.

This kid goes home and tries to apply this to his favorite tunes. Like most guitar players, hes probably built a foundation on wanking his penta-doodle scale over some "blues". He:
a.Is confused about why all the chords are dom7s. Aren't dom7s only naturally built on the V in a major key, and they resolve to I? Don't secondary dominants tonicize a chord and then resolve to that? Why do none of these dom7s, except the V, 'resolve' like you taught me?
b.Doesn't understand why he can play the minor penta-doodle over a major chord. You said that the scale I choose is related to the chords I'm playing over. You told me this song is in A major...but why am I play A minor pentatonic, and the C sounds good over the A chord? I'm so confused. So I can play a major or minor third over any chord? OK!
c.You told me to practice playing the notes that go with the chord. It looks like mixolydian mode has the same notes as these dom7's, but if I play it over every chord it sounds like an irish jig, and nothing like duane allman! YOURE A BAD TEACHER! I HATE YOU!

Ok, so how would you explain to this kid what he needs to understand in order to distinguish a blues from a typical, major key?

This is your chance to really floor me, so please convince me...
__________________
Check out my band Socrates and the Lava Gods

Last edited by chronowarp : 09-28-2012 at 06:37 PM.
chronowarp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 06:36 PM   #44
chronowarp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolflen
Ya, you're right, but I don't think that was the crux of my point even if I did say it. I forced myself to compartmentalize my argument in order to make a clear distinction between what's perceived as a blues tonality versus a "major key", because those two constructs are not the same - aurally, or functionally.

does charlie parker know this is a non functional blues progression...

Cmaj7 Bm7-5 E7-9 Am7 D7 Gm7 C7 Fmaj7 Fm7 Bb7
Em7 A7 Ebm7 Ab7 Dm7 G7 Cmaj7 Am7 Dm7 G7 Cmaj7

blues does not have to be just dominate 7th based chords..for x#of measures each..but the tradional 3 chord version seems to upset your view of harmonic values..and you infer that these 3 chords are somehow not part of diatonic harmony..(lets say 20th century harmony..so we dont have to compare classical harmonic values with todays) the progression above is a classic parker approach to the blues...and a blues it is..it shows the "hidden chords" that are in a 3 chord version of the blues..

yep its diatonic harmony plus a kick in the ass...!!!!


That's most certainly not diatonic harmony, lol, but I understand what you're saying.

I don't think approaching a discussion of blues from a perspective of rhythm changes or heavily substituted Jazz-blues is the right approach. If you want to make that argument then you need to take it back and investigate how blues based harmony evolved into Jazz, and how it's still intrinsically similar.
__________________
Check out my band Socrates and the Lava Gods
chronowarp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 07:00 PM   #45
AlanHB
Godin's Resident Groupie
 
AlanHB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Canberra, Australia
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronowarp
No, I think it because ... a major key doesn't have a tonic dom7 chord.

.....

Ok, so how would you explain to this kid what he needs to understand in order to distinguish a blues from a typical, major key?

This is your chance to really floor me, so please convince me...


It's been explained enough times in this thread. The blues doesn't resolve to an I7, it resolves to an I irrespective of whether it's played. I would not distinguish it from any song in a major key.

And you'll disagree and put it somewhere in quasimodal (Hunchback of Notre-Dame?) land. I've read the rest of the thread.
__________________
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
AlanHB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 07:02 PM   #46
jazz_rock_feel
Micropolyphoner
 
jazz_rock_feel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
__________________
I don't know what music theory is.


Soundcloud. Look at it. Or don't.
jazz_rock_feel is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 07:03 PM   #47
chronowarp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Bro. Stop this cryptic bullshit. I can't stand it.
I'm giving you the opportunity to engage in discussion here, it's not about right or wrong. Explain to me how you would approach teaching that distinction to a student in the format I presented.

And while you're add it explain to me how a blues resolves to a I chord that isnt a dom7, even though you've never, and probably will never, hear a blues player play a maj7 over the I chord in a blues...what do they play...ah a b7! What about the IV7 as well? Shouldn't that resolve to bVII?
__________________
Check out my band Socrates and the Lava Gods
chronowarp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 07:05 PM   #48
chronowarp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazz_rock_feel

protip: 7th aren't color extensions, as most would describe it...afterall the 3rd&7th are the defining qualities of a sonority...and usually a direct insight into its function.

But ya, I love using a b7 as "color" when I voice my Imaj7 chords.
__________________
Check out my band Socrates and the Lava Gods
chronowarp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 07:09 PM   #49
jazz_rock_feel
Micropolyphoner
 
jazz_rock_feel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronowarp
protip: 7th aren't color extensions, as most would describe it...

__________________
I don't know what music theory is.


Soundcloud. Look at it. Or don't.
jazz_rock_feel is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 07:09 PM   #50
chronowarp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazz_rock_feel

You're gonna have to explain yourself then...
__________________
Check out my band Socrates and the Lava Gods
chronowarp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 07:10 PM   #51
Hydra150
not so cowardly
 
Hydra150's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Scotland
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronowarp
you've never, and probably will never, hear a blues player play a maj7 over the I chord in a blues

*cough*
__________________
But boys will be boys and girls have those eyes
that'll cut you to ribbons, sometimes
and all you can do is just wait by the moon
and bleed if it's what she says you ought to do
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip_pepper
I'm not gonna post pics of my hot mom.
Hydra150 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 07:11 PM   #52
chronowarp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hydra150

Doesn't count.
__________________
Check out my band Socrates and the Lava Gods
chronowarp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 07:12 PM   #53
Hydra150
not so cowardly
 
Hydra150's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Scotland
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronowarp
Doesn't count.

It's a blues.

__________________
But boys will be boys and girls have those eyes
that'll cut you to ribbons, sometimes
and all you can do is just wait by the moon
and bleed if it's what she says you ought to do
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip_pepper
I'm not gonna post pics of my hot mom.
Hydra150 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 07:13 PM   #54
chronowarp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hydra150
It's a blues.

its a heavily substituted jazz blues.

But again, I'm not sure what you're talking about in this tune, since he ends tons of his lines in the first chorus with an Eb...are you talking about in the head when there's an E?

I guess the distinction here is that the chart is specifically descriptive in not treating the I as a dom7 in the head, but, again, its a jazz blues and which opens a whole can of worms in relation to what to expect. But you can hear as the solo picks up he continuously treats it as such.
__________________
Check out my band Socrates and the Lava Gods

Last edited by chronowarp : 09-28-2012 at 07:23 PM.
chronowarp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 07:19 PM   #55
Hydra150
not so cowardly
 
Hydra150's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Scotland
That F is an F△. I think, I haven't really checked these performances I posted but I know the bird changes start with a maj7.
__________________
But boys will be boys and girls have those eyes
that'll cut you to ribbons, sometimes
and all you can do is just wait by the moon
and bleed if it's what she says you ought to do
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip_pepper
I'm not gonna post pics of my hot mom.
Hydra150 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 07:24 PM   #56
chronowarp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazz_rock_feel


So ... you're saying that the 7th isn't a component of the identifying structure of a chord, and is irrelevant to the function? So all this time when I'm playing maj9s I could have been playing 7#5#9's? Shit. I'll try that tonight
__________________
Check out my band Socrates and the Lava Gods
chronowarp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 07:25 PM   #57
TheHydra
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronowarp
Ok, so how would you explain to this kid what he needs to understand in order to distinguish a blues from a typical, major key?

This is your chance to really floor me, so please convince me...

I don't know about Alan, but I'd tell the kid he needs to learn blues songs.
TheHydra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 07:26 PM   #58
chronowarp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
BB! Rock that ^7 bro!



edit: bad example, lol, he uses a maj7 as a passing tone real early on (but its over the V).
__________________
Check out my band Socrates and the Lava Gods

Last edited by chronowarp : 09-28-2012 at 07:35 PM.
chronowarp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 07:29 PM   #59
chronowarp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHydra
I don't know about Alan, but I'd tell the kid he needs to learn blues songs.

I don't understand.
__________________
Check out my band Socrates and the Lava Gods
chronowarp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 07:29 PM   #60
Hydra150
not so cowardly
 
Hydra150's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Scotland
guys pls

Loving the BB king. He's the best person.
__________________
But boys will be boys and girls have those eyes
that'll cut you to ribbons, sometimes
and all you can do is just wait by the moon
and bleed if it's what she says you ought to do
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip_pepper
I'm not gonna post pics of my hot mom.

Last edited by Hydra150 : 09-28-2012 at 07:30 PM.
Hydra150 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:01 AM.

Forum Archives / About / Terms of Use / Advertise / Contact / Ultimate-Guitar.Com © 2014
Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.