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Old 09-28-2012, 04:31 PM   #1
Skysc
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50 watts speakers enough for drummer

2x12 with celestion g12m greenback ( 25 watts each ) ... is this enough for a drummer ?? in a practice environnement ( basement ) ???

ill play mostly at home ... but just wanna know if it will handle a drummer if needed


is it a problem is the amp is like 60 watts ... but will never be cranked to the max
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Old 09-28-2012, 04:37 PM   #2
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Old 09-28-2012, 04:39 PM   #3
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I think the rule of thumb is to use speakers with double the wattage capability of your amp. For me, that would be cutting it way too close. I fried too many speakers when I was young.
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Old 09-28-2012, 05:49 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woad_yurt
I think the rule of thumb is to use speakers with double the wattage capability of your amp.


it's not a 'rule of thumb' unless you consider something that gets repeated on this site over and over again for some unknown reason as a 'rule of thumb'

speakers have a nominal rating... amps have a nominal output... if it is specification-correct to run "speakers that can handle double the rated amp output" then why wouldn't greenbacks just be rated at 12.5 watts instead of 25?

many people bring up "but tube amps can output more power than they are rated for", and this is true. when you push a tube amp past it's nominal rating it is also getting stressing the amp hard.

but the same thing can be said about a speaker: "speakers can handle more power than they are rated for". and when you push a speaker past it's nominal rating, then it is also getting stressed...

so it seems like the real question is are you planning on running your amp near nominal ratings? past nominal ratings?

-if not, then don't worry about it
-if so, then do you want to run your speakers past nominal?

you may then ask "why would you want to run a speaker past nominal ratings?" to that i'd reply 'why would you want to run you amp past nominal ratings?" the answer to either of those questions is: it gives you a tone you may like.

greenbacks are especially notorious for being driven hard to get the tone of the speaker 'rounding' or distorting.

"but isn't that dangerous?": speakers aren't designed to last forever. they are very similar to car tires in that they have a inherently limited life and they will eventually wear out. pushing them past nominal does stress them more, and it does shorten their life. most people don't actually run the speakers much past nominal anyway, so it is kinda a moot point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skysc
2x12 with celestion g12m greenback ( 25 watts each ) ... is this enough for a drummer ?? in a practice environnement ( basement ) ???

ill play mostly at home ... but just wanna know if it will handle a drummer if needed


probably. i have heard amps with a single greenback in it and it can be heard over the drums. if you are having issues being heard, then raise the speaker cab closer to ear level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skysc
is it a problem is the amp is like 60 watts ... but will never be cranked to the max


if you are cranking the hell outta your amp alot, then i maybe you should look at other speakers. and even if you were, many people actually like the sound of 'rounded' greenbacks. i wouldn't expect them to blow anytime soon just cuz your amp is rated 10 watts past their nominal even if you dimed the amp everyday.
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Last edited by gumbilicious : 09-28-2012 at 05:53 PM.
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Old 09-28-2012, 05:55 PM   #5
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what gumbi said

I know that celestions have a rep of being rated conservatively, for "real world" applications- i.e. a 50 watt-rated celestion (most models) is safe with a 50 watt tube amp.

whether you want to chance it, though, is your call.
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Old 09-28-2012, 06:00 PM   #6
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well im gonna switch to a lower waatage tube amp eventually ...


like i said .. the amp is 60 watts .. but will be played at 2-3 on the master volume . so i wont be pushing the waatage to his max .

i just wanted to know if usually a 20 watts tube amp and a 2x12 green back ( 50 watts total ) is enough for a drummer .
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Old 09-28-2012, 06:02 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Mc
what gumbi said

I know that celestions have a rep of being rated conservatively, for "real world" applications- i.e. a 50 watt-rated celestion (most models) is safe with a 50 watt tube amp.

whether you want to chance it, though, is your call.


i won't advice people to do this, but i was in a band with a friend. he ran his 50 watt amp through a single greenback, mainly cuz he loved the rounded greenback tone. ran it this way for years and never had a problem. i am guessing he never ran the amp past ~40 watts (you never know really). he specifically wanted a preamp/speaker distortion tone without the power amp distorting at all.

eventually i bought the speaker, still run it in my 1x12 at times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skysc
well im gonna switch to a lower waatage tube amp eventually ...


like i said .. the amp is 60 watts .. but will be played at 2-3 on the master volume . so i wont be pushing the waatage to his max .

i just wanted to know if usually a 20 watts tube amp and a 2x12 green back ( 50 watts total ) is enough for a drummer .


a speaker's output is not totally dependent on it's 'wattage rating'. how loud a speaker is depends on it's sensitivity rating. and a G12M-25 is rated at 96 dB, which is a little quieter than say a V30. but it should still get plenty loud with a 20 watt amp - like 109 to 112 dB with the amp running flat out. to give you an idea ~120 dB is the threshold of pain.
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Last edited by gumbilicious : 09-28-2012 at 06:12 PM.
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Old 09-28-2012, 06:27 PM   #8
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Old 09-28-2012, 06:32 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woad_yurt
I think the rule of thumb is to use speakers with double the wattage capability of your amp. For me, that would be cutting it way too close. I fried too many speakers when I was young.



I guess Vox has been doing it wrong all these years putting 15 watt Alnico Blues in AC30s all this time.

As long as speaker wattage matches or is greater than amp wattage, you're ok
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Old 09-28-2012, 09:28 PM   #10
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a good quality speaker can match the watts like a celestion alnico blue.

but yeah thats not a good practice. if you are not cranking the amp, your probably ok. but still. you cant atleast find 2 30 watt speakers ?
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Old 09-28-2012, 09:46 PM   #11
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It'll be fine. As mentioned, those things are rated very conservatively and you'll very rarely be pushing anywhere near the maximum output of your amp.

Speaker and amp ratings are not that accurate - they're designed to be a guide. You really don't need to go adding your own safety margins on top of the ones that are already there.
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Old 09-29-2012, 06:21 AM   #12
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I guess shouldn't have said "it's rule of thumb" but something more like "if you want to rest easy and not have to wonder...."
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Old 09-29-2012, 06:26 AM   #13
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Old 09-29-2012, 12:54 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gumbilicious
(a) i won't advice people to do this, but i was in a band with a friend. he ran his 50 watt amp through a single greenback, mainly cuz he loved the rounded greenback tone. ran it this way for years and never had a problem. i am guessing he never ran the amp past ~40 watts (you never know really). he specifically wanted a preamp/speaker distortion tone without the power amp distorting at all.

eventually i bought the speaker, still run it in my 1x12 at times.



(b) a speaker's output is not totally dependent on it's 'wattage rating'. how loud a speaker is depends on it's sensitivity rating. and a G12M-25 is rated at 96 dB, which is a little quieter than say a V30. but it should still get plenty loud with a 20 watt amp - like 109 to 112 dB with the amp running flat out. to give you an idea ~120 dB is the threshold of pain.


(a) ah, sweet

(b) they seem to be rating the (chinese) greenback at 98dB now. Certainly the one i have isn't all that much quieter than a v30, and more or less is the same volume as the (chinese) g12h30.

that being said, celestion seems to be all over the place with their ratings at the moment. when i got my heritage g12h30s (the 55Hz ones), they were rated at 100dB. I checked a while back and they were described as being 98dB. They seem to be describing them as 100dB again.

FWIW, they do seem noticeably quieter than v30s, (chinese) g12h30s, maybe even slightly quieter than my greenback.

Quote:
Originally Posted by woad_yurt
I guess shouldn't have said "it's rule of thumb" but something more like "if you want to rest easy and not have to wonder...."


yep that's fair enough- like gumbi said, I wouldn't advise that anyone risk it. Or at very least, I'd say, "Do it at your own risk." But at the same time, certain speakers are known to be pretty rugged and rated pretty conservatively, so you'll *probably* be fine. But again, at your own risk.
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Old 09-29-2012, 01:00 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CodeMonk
As long as speaker wattage matches or is greater than amp wattage, you're ok


Quote:
Originally Posted by kyle62
Speaker and amp ratings are not that accurate - they're designed to be a guide. You really don't need to go adding your own safety margins on top of the ones that are already there.


(I'm answering to both these posts, as they're pretty much saying the same thing)

I'm not sure I'd go to that extreme, either- some companies (like celestion with most of their models) build in their own safety margins. But not all do.

I'd feel reasonably safe running two 25 watt greenbacks with a 50 watt amp. I don't think I'd run a 50 watt eminence with a 50 watt amp (that I was cranking), though- as they have the reputation of being a lot more optimistic with their wattage (and also sensitivity, though obviously that doesn't affect whether the speaker will blow or not) ratings.

I'm no speaker expert, but i've seen people (who know more than me) say that eminence's 50 watt speakers, like the private jack or gb12, seem to be made from pretty similar (if not identical) materials (at least in regard to how safe the thing is at a given wattage) to the greenback, yet the eminences are rated at 50 watts while the celestion is rated at 25 watts.

(To clarify, I'm not saying eminence makes bad speakers, I really like eminence speakers, just they seem to rate them in slightly different ways, so you need to bear that in mind.)
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Old 09-29-2012, 01:34 PM   #16
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^yeah, there is no industry standard for rating speakers really. they can also use different 'test signals' to rate different attributes. many times power handling has to do with how much current the voice coil can dissipate when dealing with guitar speakers.

i am a big advocate of 'play as many speakers as you can get your hands on and find out what works for you'. good advice can help a person figure out where to start, but there is quite a bit of snake oil permeating speakers.

i would like to think if a speaker is rated for a certain power handling then it could at least meet it's spec... but that might not be the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by woad_yurt
I guess shouldn't have said "it's rule of thumb" but something more like "if you want to rest easy and not have to wonder...."


that is still not good enough. i have run across advice from HI-FI guys that goes

1) run speakers with higher power handling than the amp if you want to 'save' the speakers from stress. you'd do this when your speaker setup is more expensive than you amp.

2) run speaker with a lower power handling than the amp if you want to 'save' the amp from being stressed. the idea is you won't crank the amp that high cuz the speaker will sound like crap. you'd do this when you amp is more expensive than your speaker setup.

in most of our situations guitarists use amps that are more expensive than their speakers. so some legitimate studio guys would actually advise you to run speakers of a lower rating than your amp.

mind you, that is advice from the HI-FI world and isn't overly applicable to us guitarists as much. for us, we are best off observing nominal ratings and maybe running 'over-rated' or 'under-rated' components depending on our tastes.

-if you want speaker distortion, then run rated or underrated speakers
-if you want your speakers to remain clean, run overrated speakers

the same thing goes for amps

-if you want power amp breakup, run an amp with a relatively low nominal output
-if you don't want your power amp to distort, run an amp with relatively high nominal output

i see i am coming down on you pretty hard, but as you can tell this is a topic that kinda gets under my skin. this tendency to run excessively overrated speakers on this forum is a reflection of most the metal that gets played by guitarists on this forum (metal players don't like speaker distortion). i prefer to give much more general advice and let the TS decide for himself what may work best for him/her.

the advice of running heavily overrated speakers is far from absolute and limits the choices of the person asking for speaker advice. another consequence is that people start going around citing this kinda advice like it is an absolute, when it is far from absolute.
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Old 09-29-2012, 02:34 PM   #17
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Old 09-29-2012, 09:36 PM   #18
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Listen to Gumbi and Dave. Sound advice there.
Unless you are like me and run your amps constantly dimed I don't foresee an issue.
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Old 09-29-2012, 09:41 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gumbilicious
^yeah, there is no industry standard for rating speakers really. they can also use different 'test signals' to rate different attributes. many times power handling has to do with how much current the voice coil can dissipate when dealing with guitar speakers.

i am a big advocate of 'play as many speakers as you can get your hands on and find out what works for you'. good advice can help a person figure out where to start, but there is quite a bit of snake oil permeating speakers.

i would like to think if a speaker is rated for a certain power handling then it could at least meet it's spec... but that might not be the case.



that is still not good enough. i have run across advice from HI-FI guys that goes

1) run speakers with higher power handling than the amp if you want to 'save' the speakers from stress. you'd do this when your speaker setup is more expensive than you amp.

2) run speaker with a lower power handling than the amp if you want to 'save' the amp from being stressed. the idea is you won't crank the amp that high cuz the speaker will sound like crap. you'd do this when you amp is more expensive than your speaker setup.

in most of our situations guitarists use amps that are more expensive than their speakers. so some legitimate studio guys would actually advise you to run speakers of a lower rating than your amp.

mind you, that is advice from the HI-FI world and isn't overly applicable to us guitarists as much. for us, we are best off observing nominal ratings and maybe running 'over-rated' or 'under-rated' components depending on our tastes.

-if you want speaker distortion, then run rated or underrated speakers
-if you want your speakers to remain clean, run overrated speakers

the same thing goes for amps

-if you want power amp breakup, run an amp with a relatively low nominal output
-if you don't want your power amp to distort, run an amp with relatively high nominal output

i see i am coming down on you pretty hard, but as you can tell this is a topic that kinda gets under my skin. this tendency to run excessively overrated speakers on this forum is a reflection of most the metal that gets played by guitarists on this forum (metal players don't like speaker distortion). i prefer to give much more general advice and let the TS decide for himself what may work best for him/her.

the advice of running heavily overrated speakers is far from absolute and limits the choices of the person asking for speaker advice. another consequence is that people start going around citing this kinda advice like it is an absolute, when it is far from absolute.


200 watt speakers or gtfo
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Old 09-30-2012, 02:21 PM   #20
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