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Old 10-01-2012, 01:33 AM   #21
mattrusso
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronowarp
Nah, dude, it definitely exists.
Is it often neglected because the internal m2 can disrupt the function of the chord? Yes.

That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, hasn't been used, or can't be used. Sounds like you're just regurgitating 60's jazz rhetoric.

I think what you're trying to say is, "It's atypical to use a natural 11th extension on a major chord, because it creates a highly dissonant m2 interval between the 3rd & 11th, which can disrupt the function of the chord. Because of this Jazz musicians tend to raise the 4th to create a maj7#11."

I'd love to read a music theory book that forbids you from using a specific sonority, and claims it doesn't exist...please show me.


http://valdez.dumarsengraving.com/P...ny/Harmony1.PDF
http://valdez.dumarsengraving.com/P...ny/Harmony2.PDF
http://valdez.dumarsengraving.com/P...ny/Harmony3.PDF
http://valdez.dumarsengraving.com/P...ny/Harmony4.PDF

This is the core harmony curriculum from Berklee (it's a little out of date, but I'm sure it still supports what I'm saying). How's that?

I'm not saying this sonority doesn't exist or trying to tell someone not to use it. It just doesn't sound like D major and there are certain implications to that. Play that on a guitar. Does it really sound like D major to you? It certainly doesn't to me, and I think you'd have to theoretically force yourself into thinking that it does.

Also, the reason for raising 11 to sharp 11 is to create a Lydian voicing, not to take away a dissonant relationship. It creates a tritone with the root; not exactly the most consonant sound.

I'm not trying to argue with or confront you (don't take anything I say personally/negatively), but I'm not making this shit up. It's what I study and I'm trying to spread what knowledge I have and clear up a lot of confusion.

The funny thing is that we basically both have the same advice for the threadstarter!
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Old 10-01-2012, 01:35 AM   #22
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Great, I don't disagree with you (if you actually read my posts) that an internal m2 in a major chord disrupts the function.

But you said it doesn't exist, that's not the case. This is purely semantics since we both understand the how/why. I'm a jazz musician as well, this shit isn't news to me.

I just don't know if telling the OP "bro you can't use that chord" is the right advice. I actually don't find that particular voicing all that disgusting, especially because the m2 is buried in the middle.
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Last edited by chronowarp : 10-01-2012 at 01:36 AM.
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Old 10-01-2012, 02:00 AM   #23
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another question quickly derailed by useless walls of garbage that are largely for self-aggrandizing over the internet under a thin veil of "oh this is really helpful advice" rather than anything useful

congrats on this thread
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Old 10-01-2012, 02:00 AM   #24
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I at least answered the OP's question first
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Old 10-01-2012, 02:53 AM   #25
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I got a little lost where the argument went downhill but meh, it's a progression in G major with a bVII borrowed from the parallel minor.

What's the scale? G major, but you can play a b7 accidental over the F to accommodate for clashes.
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Old 10-01-2012, 08:13 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by TheAscendant
These are Gmaj, Dmaj, Fmaj and Cmaj chords I believe. As I will be also using these chords as the base for my solo, I was wondering what scales I could use over them.


If you're thinking in those terms when you're in the process of writing a solo you're going about the process the wrong way.

Solos are musical interludes. So write some music you like. That's all there is to it. You can use any notes you like as long as you like what you have produced.

You can write it in a microtonal scale known only to you.
You can just hammer away at the note C for 3/4 hour.
You can record the sounds of a guitar being destroyed with a mangle and ask for the player to repeatedly shout out the phrase "an internal m2 in a major chord disrupts the function" in a sarcastic voice.

Making a big plan of 'how I will solo' before you begin is like preparing a bunch of diagrams for the next time you "get it on" with the missus. Just go with the flow. And if you're not in the mood get yo ass in the mood and try again.
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Old 10-01-2012, 08:33 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronowarp

I think what you're trying to say is, "It's atypical to use a natural 11th extension on a major chord, because it creates a highly dissonant m2 interval between the 3rd & 11th, which can disrupt the function of the chord. Because of this Jazz musicians tend to raise the 4th to create a maj7#11."



The reason the Maj11 isn't used often is mainly because of the dissonance between the 7th and 11th, not the 3rd and 11th.

The function isn't changed with the addition of the 11th to a major triad.
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Old 10-01-2012, 08:50 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattrusso
First of all, I don't know what that second chord is, but it's definitely not D major. That G in there is a real problem if you want it to be heard as a D major chord. How did you come up with that structure? The only way I can analyze it is as some strange A Dorian modal voicing or as a polychord (assuming there's a bass playing the root underneath).


It's based on an open C major shape moved up two frets. The open strings mean it isn't D major, but you can see why he thought it was.
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Old 10-01-2012, 11:29 AM   #29
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i'm starting to like chronowarp

i'm still sticking with "TS, use your ears, this scale shit makes a lot more sense when you actually figure it out for yourself and will be a lot easier than trying to line up your ear with what you're playing later"
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Old 10-01-2012, 11:45 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by TheAscendant
So...write whatever sounds good to my ears?


Yes, don't think scale/chords/time signature/etc, write whatever sounds good to you.
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Old 10-01-2012, 11:55 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattrusso
First of all, I don't know what that second chord is, but it's definitely not D major. That G in there is a real problem if you want it to be heard as a D major chord. How did you come up with that structure? The only way I can analyze it is as some strange A Dorian modal voicing or as a polychord (assuming there's a bass playing the root underneath).

D/A, (2nd inversion)

The G note is just a very brief inner pedal for the first two chords.
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Old 10-01-2012, 02:05 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by griffRG7321
The reason the Maj11 isn't used often is mainly because of the dissonance between the 7th and 11th, not the 3rd and 11th.

The function isn't changed with the addition of the 11th to a major triad.

No, it's the 3rd & 11th. A m2 is more disruptive than a tritone.

The function is obscured, which is why it isn't typically used.

Think about it. Cmaj... maj#11 is used because of 7th and 11th...(B-F=tritone). So you raise it B-F#. Now you've got another tritone between the root and the 11th...so why did you change one tritone just to create another? E F=m2, E-F#=M2! No more m2s in the chord!

Think about commonly used sonorities...Can you think of anywhere that you'll typically find a m2 inside a non-dominant type chord? Then think about how many internal tritones you can find in non-dominant functioning chords.
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Last edited by chronowarp : 10-01-2012 at 02:15 PM.
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Old 10-01-2012, 02:18 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronowarp
Think about commonly used sonorities...Can you think of anywhere that you'll typically find a m2 inside a non-dominant type chord?

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/foru...11#post30388711
http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/foru...17#post30390917 (errr, that was meant to send you to the top of this thread lol)

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Old 10-01-2012, 02:20 PM   #34
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That is one!

But think about how common that sonority is...and then think about how you explained it (inner pedal).
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Old 10-01-2012, 02:23 PM   #35
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In the context of his progression, yes. But sure there can be other contexts where you can label that chord as Dadd4/add11.
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Old 10-01-2012, 02:24 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by mdc
In the context of his progression, yes. But sure there can be other contextss where you can label that chord as Dadd4/add11.

Yep.
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Old 10-01-2012, 02:31 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by mdc
D/A, (2nd inversion)

The G note is just a very brief inner pedal for the first two chords.
I think we're talking about pulling a C major open shape, up to the second fret, but still playing across all six strings. (And feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

This tactic produces a V, I resolution in G major. It just seems like a folkie / cowboy idiomatic progression.

As you pointed out, the G note hanging over from the C major open is a grace note.

However, as the chords blend, it produces a Dadd 9 (from the open e-1), a Dsus4, (from the open G-3). The 3rd of D (F# (obviously) adds a Major 7th interval to the impending G Major.

At one point, since there's no B note ever, you could argue there's a bizarre and magical, "thing-a-ma-chord", which suddenly appears, Gmajor7sus2. (the Gsus2 being the A note on E-6) (with a 6th of G, e-1 open, thrown in for good measure).

Since I'll undoubtedly be ignored anyway, I'll tentatively rename that to Gsus2major7, which will give everybody another statement to refute.

But I suppose since it all happens so quickly, it's probably better not to worry about it, as you tend to get bogged down in theory, with the resultant 7 page contention-fest).

Last edited by Captaincranky : 10-01-2012 at 04:38 PM.
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Old 10-01-2012, 02:36 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Captaincranky
But I suppose since it all happens so quickly, it's probably better not to worry about it,

Yeah, this.
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as you tend to get bogged down in theory, with the resultant 7 page contention-fest).
Don't. Just... don't even...
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Old 10-01-2012, 02:43 PM   #39
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Don't. Just... don't even...
Dude, not to worry. I said my piece, and with it, surrendered my inclination to GAF......

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Old 10-01-2012, 03:07 PM   #40
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x54030 is used a lot. Very common chord in G major progressions. And it definitely is a D major chord that has some open string color notes. You don't need to name them. It's just a D major with color notes. Same as you can move E major chord up and leave E and B strings open. In this case you move C major chord up and leave E and G strings open. Just color notes and used a lot everywhere.
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