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Old 10-03-2012, 02:15 AM   #61
W4RP1G
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Originally Posted by Hail
no, you shouldn't think about modes at all. you could be fucking bach and i'd tell you to just learn what accidentals are and write music as music rather than arithmetic.

music theory is descriptive, not prescriptive, and looking for filler answers and ideas (read: scales and "modes") without being able to analyze an entire context (read: make music and use your ears) will only lead you down a painful path.

take your progression, TS, and just write with your ears for a bit. saying "these 7 notes are okay to use" is like giving a man a fish, but it's absolutely a waste of time in the long-run.

So are you saying that anyone who has written good music that utilizes different modes has done so unintentionally?

If I'm simply just too ignorant of modes and their function to understand you, then I can accept that. But you're literally the first person I've come across in the many hours I've spent reading about modes on the internet to say that modes are useless. Why do they exist then?
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Old 10-03-2012, 02:28 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by W4RP1G
But you're literally the first person I've come across in the many hours I've spent reading about modes on the internet to say that modes are useless.

which internet have you been on
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Old 10-03-2012, 02:32 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by W4RP1G
So are you saying that anyone who has written good music that utilizes different modes has done so unintentionally?

If I'm simply just too ignorant of modes and their function to understand you, then I can accept that. But you're literally the first person I've come across in the many hours I've spent reading about modes on the internet to say that modes are useless. Why do they exist then?

protip: most of the stuff you'll read on the interwebs about modes, actually has nothing to do with modes.
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Old 10-03-2012, 02:49 AM   #64
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which internet have you been on

The one Al Gore invented.
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Old 10-03-2012, 03:15 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by TS
If I'm simply just too ignorant of modes and their function to understand you, then I can accept that. But you're literally the first person I've come across in the many hours I've spent reading about modes on the internet to say that modes are useless. Why do they exist then?


Modes are a system of tonality pre-dating keys. Would you analyse a novel in English using Latin?
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Old 10-03-2012, 04:31 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by mattrusso
There's no such thing as a major chord with a natural 11. The minor 2nd rub between the natural 3 and the natural 4/"11" makes it totally harmonically ambiguous, at least to my ears (and to most, if not all modern music theorists).

That's not to say you shouldn't play it; if you like it, play it. Just know that it's not what you thought it was and it's gonna function in a different way.

Nah mate it functions as a D major.

It's similar to the chord that Bob Dylan plays in the song It Aint Me Babe where he plays an open C major and slides the shape up two frets. The open G still rings but the chord is quite clearly a D and functions as such providing in that case a resolution to the G major chord. In this case though he has an A in the bass and doesn't resolve to the G but goes down and repeats the same I-V move a whole step lower but it all relates back to that G tonic which gives us I V bVII IV

the C has a G in the bass and is a V chord to the preceding F which does not sound resolved however following it with a G resolves it to the G by way of a plagal cadence which is really common in contemporary rock/blues based styles of music.

It's in G with a borrowed bVII.

As for the melody and improvising just approach it chord by chord but if you had to choose a scale then go with g major and a little Mixolydian flavour over the F chord - sorry I mean some F natural accidentals.
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Old 10-03-2012, 04:46 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by W4RP1G
If I'm simply just too ignorant of modes and their function to understand you, then I can accept that.


What are modes and their functions? Which modes? The ones we currently use? The Greek Tonoi? The Medieval church modes? The Byzantine octoechos? Jewish cantillation modes? Modern modes?
What are their functions? In tonal music? Atonal music? Re-creations of ancient Greek music? Folk music?

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Originally Posted by W4RP1G
Why do they exist then?


Because of the ancient Greeks, reinterpreted by the Byzantine and Medieval churchs, and then - by degrees - reinterpreted by 19th century and 20th century theoreticians, until we ended up with the Internets version of 'what a mode is'. Srs. Look it up on Wiki. Or in the History of Western Music. Or Groves.

Music exists like it does partly because of basic physical of the world (the overtone series, the ability of wood to resonate, the way our hearing works at a physical level), but also - like our political institutions - because of history. Musical ideas don't exist because they are the most useful. Much as I love the thing I'd be the first to admit that if you wanted a most useful instrument you could do better than invent the guitar.

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Originally Posted by W4RP1G
But you're literally the first person I've come across in the many hours I've spent reading about modes on the internet to say that modes are useless.


Modes are either a pre-tonal system (see above), or guitarist-speak for "ways to play the same scale in different positions on the neck".

If you're mainly writing tonal music then talking about modes is utterly pointless unless you're trying to create an ambiguous tonality. Creating an ambiguous tonality has a hell of a lot more to it than using "modal" scalesthough, just like being atonal has more to it than just crunching dischords. To be atonal there has to be a consistent effort made to avoid tonal progressions because those progressions will tend to drag your music back towards tonality. That's (partly) why Schoenberg developed his 12-tone system - by presenting a row before the composition and then religiously sticking to that row you stop yourself falling back into old habits. Making modal music suffers from the same problem, and has the same solution - avoid tonal progressions. Problem is that harmony generated from modal Lydian scales don't differ at all from harmony generated from the Major scale (because they /are/ the major scale, just starting on a different note). So if you play a progression vi II V I "in Lydian" it will still sound like vi II V I "in F" no matter how hard you try. And this is the reason why modal harmony tends to work best when you get static passages without much of a clear tonal centre - because as soon as you get away from that tonality tends to take over and your music stops sounding modal. Playing a C Major scale starting on F over a bII substitution isn't any more modal than sticking a cluster chord in the middle of a I V I progression makes the music atonal. Which is what most people here seem to mean when they ask about modes. Which is why they get slated as dumb and useless. They're not dumb or useless (heresy! burn the witch!), but they have pretty specific uses, one of which isn't "I have written a piece using the Phyrgian Dominant so my music is modal".
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Old 10-03-2012, 05:36 AM   #68
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In the piece that I'm writing I ended the section before with an Eminor. How I began the following section is simply because the relative major is Gmajor, also because the song is in Eminor, I wanted to apply some modulation. (smartybar) I wanted this passage/progression to sound happy so I made all the chords major.

I chose a fifth of G which is the D. I have been messing around with the open C shape and moved it up 2 frets. I figured that because this open C shape is obviously major, moved up 2 frets will have a Dmajor sound to it.

Moving down a tone from where I began I repeated the process. I liked what I heard and so the rest is history(:
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Old 10-03-2012, 05:48 AM   #69
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I just read this post and must respond because it is sooo wrong. Sorry Sleepy__Head no disrespect I know you mean well but it's not good advice.
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Originally Posted by Sleepy__Head
Making a big plan of 'how I will solo' before you begin is like preparing a bunch of diagrams for the next time you "get it on" with the missus. Just go with the flow. And if you're not in the mood get yo ass in the mood and try again.

This is a very good analogy but completey the wrong advice. First off I have to state that I am all for spontanaeity and being able to change your game plan without hesitation if that is what is needed in the moment.

Now this next statement may seem counterintuitive but is nevertheless true. Having a plan is the best way to avoid repetitive, predictable, and ultimately unsatisfying love making(soloing). Doing some research, coming up with new ideas, buying new toys, and yes even drawing or studying some diagrams outside the bedroom will give you more tricks and fresh plays to keep her wanting more. Having a plan does not mean you can not deviate from it and improvise but it means you have some well thought out new tricks in the bag to pull out if the moment is right.

Also planning ahead will get you laid more often for multiple reasons.

She will continually be surprised by your innovation and fresh ideas (she doesn't have to know they're planned and researched ahead of time) and a consequence of it being more exciting and satisfying for her is that she will look forward to the next time that much more not knowing what to expect. The anticipation and suspense is part of what makes it so good - as a musician you should know this anticipation/suspense = tension that the listener feels a need to be resolved.

Also a good plan will not just be for the main act but the lead up and preparation to get her in the mood: the suggestive inuendo throughout the day; the sweet attention and physical contact when you are with her; the romantic dinner; the sexy compliments or whatever else you might come upwith. All this stuff will make her feel desired, sexy, and she will be more receptive to, or more likely to initiate sexual advances.

A good plan is flexible and allows for innovation. If you get too focused on the plan your focus will not be on her and what is happening - you must be present.

On the flip side no plan and no prep work means that your advances may appear to her to be sex for the sake of having sex. That's more likely to get shot down.

If you are lucky enough to strike at the right time and your whole game plan is nothing more than "go with the flow" then you end up having to rely on whatever you might come up with at the time as well as what you know works (i.e. the usual moves). Don't get me wrong this approach can work and result in some great moments but more often than not it will lead to you using the same old tricks that you know will work in a given situation.

The same goes for soloing. Having a plan doens't mean you focus so heavily on sticking to the plan that you lose the ability to read and respond to the situation as it changes but it gives you a bag of new ideas and strategies to get the audience (and yourself) off.

A plan will also help you lay the foundation to make your solo great. The lead work you do within the verses and choruses as well as having a strategy to enter into and exit out of the solo. Doing research, drawing diagrams, studying the masters will all help you to come up with fresh ideas.

Without a clear plan going in you become reliant on the same phrases and licks and your playing will be more likely to start to sound repetitive to those that hear your playing often.

Plan ahead and plan well. A good plan allows for change and innovation. But as the old saying goes "failing to plan is planning to fail".

Now this next part doesn't fit the analogy but shows the importance and benefit of a plan. A grand plan well executed can also enable you to anchor your girlfriends sexual excitement and desires to a word. Then when the time is right you can bring them all flooding back and ger her in the mood with a single word, which can lead to some very spontaneous and exciting adventures.

Is the word plan starting to sound odd to anyone else? plan plan p lan pl an plan plan plan
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Old 10-03-2012, 06:04 AM   #70
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^^ in that analogy how would a solo ending on a note low down the neck translate ?
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Old 10-03-2012, 06:42 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by TheAscendant
In the piece that I'm writing I ended the section before with an Eminor. How I began the following section is simply because the relative major is Gmajor, also because the song is in Eminor, I wanted to apply some modulation. (smartybar) I wanted this passage/progression to sound happy so I made all the chords major.

I chose a fifth of G which is the D. I have been messing around with the open C shape and moved it up 2 frets. I figured that because this open C shape is obviously major, moved up 2 frets will have a Dmajor sound to it.

Moving down a tone from where I began I repeated the process. I liked what I heard and so the rest is history(:

Yeah I was wondering about the key of the progression in the OP, cuz you said it was the bridge. Since in a typical song structure, that section usually stands out from the rest.

Makes sense now.

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Old 10-03-2012, 08:01 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by 20Tigers
I just read this post and must respond because it is sooo wrong. Sorry Sleepy__Head no disrespect I know you mean well but it's not good advice.


No offence taken, but I'm gonna take you up on a few points.

Firstly - advice depends on the context and is always ambiguous. Any statement can be misunderstood given the correct context and writing on the Internet is a conversation without vocal inflection or body language thus depriving it of quite a lot of context. However - if misunderstandings arise people can always seek clarification, just like they can in a face-to-face conversation.

So - the context in this thread is something to the effect of "I'm using some chords for a solo - which scales should I use? Do I use C Lydian?"

I honestly don't think the answer "Yes, make a detailed plan about which scales to use" is good advice in that context because - as I stated - "solos are musical interludes". If you start off thinking about a musical interlude as a series of scales it won't be long before you've written a series of scales. That may be fine if you like listening to Yngwie Malmsteen but given no other information than "I'm writing a solo, which scales do I use" my answer is unlikely to change much because if the first question you ask when writing a solo is "which scale do I use" then you are - as you point out - going to get stuck in a rut.

I don't mean "You should never plan anything". Not only is that ridiculous advice, it's also in no way what I meant and not what I said either. I agree what I said could have been clearer, but the problem is that if we all insist on being extra extra clear about what we mean that's going to hamper conversation and likely lead to more nitpicking, none of which is likely to help the OP much, especially as his main observation was that he was just getting more and more confused. Which is what happens when people interpret things over-literally. Which is what happens when you deprive a conversation of 2/3 of its natural context (vocal inflection and body language). And then add pedantry.

Anyway - to return to the analogy of 'making diagrams' for a moment - the kind of scene I had was more along the lines of ...

It's a moonlit night, the music is low, the candles are lit, the beautiful meal has been consumed - perhaps you've even engaged in a bit of suggestive fruit-play, Tom Jones style (the novel, not the singer). Clearly it's time. You're both a bit nervous - butterflies and all that - she kisses you, you kiss her back, you move toward the bedroom and you reveal your charcoal sketches laid out lovingly on the bed. You indicate the order of service, pointing at the relevant diagrams. She frowns. You grow more insistent, repeatedly pointing at diagram labelled "1". She frowns some more, calls you a "****ing weirdo" then slaps you across the face, puts on her clothes and leaves. Just before she slams the door hard enough to shake the foundations of the house (causing the mp3 player to skip to the wrong track and Peter Gabriel to sing "Erogenous zones, I question you ... ") she shouts "and don't ****ing call me again. You ****ing asshole."

That's the kind of thing I had in mind. Not "Maybe if I play my cards right, make a nice meal and set the setting, perhaps tonight could be the night".

Now of course some people prefer to plan every single move down to the finest detail. Fair enough. Maybe that works for them. Myself I've usually found that having a rough idea of where I want to go and being prepared to be led elsewhere does just fine. If I don't like where I'm being led I politely decline.

Leaving the analogy and coming back to music ... I've found that writing a solo, in fact writing anything musical (as opposed to improvising live) is usually an iterative process. I sketch out where I want to go (or I pick up a sketch I've previously made). I make moves in various directions. I pick the takes I like. I keep going over the same ground from different directions. I keep thinking about how I want this thing to sound. Eventually a route becomes clear. Once I've set off down that route and reached an end-point, I put the work down and do something else, then return to it later and appraise it critically. I make adjustments. I continue that process until I'm satisfied with what I've done. I don't just sit down and say "I want a solo - which scale should I use?".

I'm not saying that everyone is the same, and that this is a "one size fits all" set of directions. But that's how I work, and my advice is based on that. You might not like it - well that's OK - maybe more detailed planning works better for you. Perhaps you do things differently? Again, just fine. Life would be boring if people were all the same. Personally I prefer to enjoy the ride a little more and plan a little less. But maybe that's just me.
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Old 10-03-2012, 08:14 AM   #73
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"solos are musical interludes".

...
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Old 10-03-2012, 10:32 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by W4RP1G
So are you saying that anyone who has written good music that utilizes different modes has done so unintentionally?


if there's more than one mode in a song, it's probably in a key.

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Modes are a system of tonality pre-dating keys. Would you analyse a novel in English using Latin?


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Old 10-03-2012, 10:53 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Sleepy__Head
Anyway - to return to the analogy of 'making diagrams' for a moment - the kind of scene I had was more along the lines of ...

It's a moonlit night, the music is low, the candles are lit, the beautiful meal has been consumed - perhaps you've even engaged in a bit of suggestive fruit-play, Tom Jones style (the novel, not the singer). Clearly it's time. You're both a bit nervous - butterflies and all that - she kisses you, you kiss her back, you move toward the bedroom and you reveal your charcoal sketches laid out lovingly on the bed. You indicate the order of service, pointing at the relevant diagrams. She frowns. You grow more insistent, repeatedly pointing at diagram labelled "1". She frowns some more, calls you a "****ing weirdo" then slaps you across the face, puts on her clothes and leaves. Just before she slams the door hard enough to shake the foundations of the house (causing the mp3 player to skip to the wrong track and Peter Gabriel to sing "Erogenous zones, I question you ... ") she shouts "and don't ****ing call me again. You ****ing asshole."

That's the kind of thing I had in mind. Not "Maybe if I play my cards right, make a nice meal and set the setting, perhaps tonight could be the night".

Now of course some people prefer to plan every single move down to the finest detail. Fair enough. Maybe that works for them. Myself I've usually found that having a rough idea of where I want to go and being prepared to be led elsewhere does just fine. If I don't like where I'm being led I politely decline.

Leaving the analogy and coming back to music ... I've found that writing a solo, in fact writing anything musical (as opposed to improvising live) is usually an iterative process. I sketch out where I want to go (or I pick up a sketch I've previously made). I make moves in various directions. I pick the takes I like. I keep going over the same ground from different directions. I keep thinking about how I want this thing to sound. Eventually a route becomes clear. Once I've set off down that route and reached an end-point, I put the work down and do something else, then return to it later and appraise it critically. I make adjustments. I continue that process until I'm satisfied with what I've done. I don't just sit down and say "I want a solo - which scale should I use?".

I'm not saying that everyone is the same, and that this is a "one size fits all" set of directions. But that's how I work, and my advice is based on that. You might not like it - well that's OK - maybe more detailed planning works better for you. Perhaps you do things differently? Again, just fine. Life would be boring if people were all the same. Personally I prefer to enjoy the ride a little more and plan a little less. But maybe that's just me.

Man that scenario is funny. To be fair though you seem to have imagined the worst possible scenario in which the plan was so bad it was guaranteed to fail. It's not really a fair comparison.

I can't remember the last time I had nervousness and butterflies. Maybe this old heart is broke.

What I consider no plan is turn up on the night and hope for the best based on what you can come up with in the moment.

What I consider to have a plan is thinking I'm going to strip her naked blindfold her and use some feathers hot wax and ice then going out and buying feathers candles and a blindfold. Then you hope for the best based on that and what you come up with in the moment.

What I consider no plan is turning up the next night and hoping for the best based on what you can come up with in the moment.

What I consider a plan is turning up the next night having thought you'd like to try some role play and having already bought the sexy policewoman uniform and giving it to her all wrapped nicely then hoping for the best based on that and what you can come up with in the moment.

What I consider no plan is turning up yet again hoping for the best based on what you can come up with in the moment.

What I consider a plan is learning and studying up on the nervous system and spending the evening finding all her buttons.

You are right everyone is different and life would be boring if we were all the same. But honestly which of the two guys above is likely to fall into a rut of predictable and repetitive love making patterns? The guy that thinks it through and plans how to keep things interesting or the guy that goes with the flow.

Often girls want the guy to take charge and will be up for whatever he is up for. If he just goes with the flow then the flow will get the same fast and it won't be long before she is bored and unsatisfied - though she might be too polite to say so.

I'm not suggesting you plan everything down to the last detail. I was very clear that I support sponenaeity and the ability to change your game plan instantly. Also you are not going to plan every time. But you should plan reglarly.

But your last statement very clearly implied enjoyment is augmented by less planning and conversely that more planning diminishes enjoyment. This is just wrong.

The whole point I have been trying to make is that a good plan will enhance levels of enjoyment.

Instead you could say you do not enjoy taking time to plan things so prefer instead to take things as they come.
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Old 10-03-2012, 11:12 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by 20Tigers
Man that scenario is funny. To be fair though you seem to have imagined the worst possible scenario in which the plan was so bad it was guaranteed to fail. It's not really a fair comparison.


Aw c'mon - it's a humorous comparison. Humorous comparisons are often unfair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 20Tigers
I can't remember the last time I had nervousness and butterflies. Maybe this old heart is broke.


Me neither. If your heart's broke there's another one here that's just as broke. What's that saying again? A trouble shared is a trouble two people have got? C'mon man: Share your pain

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Originally Posted by 20Tigers
But your last statement very clearly implied enjoyment is augmented by less planning and conversely that more planning diminishes enjoyment. This is just wrong.


Look, I'm sorry if this seems pedantic. OK, it's pedantic. OK, I'm not sorry either. OK, look ...

The analogy I made wasn't intended to be taken to the nth degree. I appreciate you took it to mean that I meant "Don't plan". I really honestly joking-asidedly didn't mean that. I meant something along the lines of "the kind of plan you have in mind will tend to restrict your options at a point in the composition process when you should be widening your options". I just chose to express that through an analogy, and the analogy I had in mind was a kind of toned-down version of the scenario I wrote for you - mainly I had the bed, the diagrams, the pointing and the slap in the face in mind. I appreciate it could have been more helpful if I'd have spelled that out, but at the time I was trying to cut through two pages of people arguing about scales and try and help the OP focus on the music rather than the technicalities. I appreciate the technicalities have their place, but music that's all technique and no spark is worthless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 20Tigers
The whole point I have been trying to make is that a good plan will enhance levels of enjoyment.


Sure, I agree with you on that. Vehemently. From the foregoing I get the impression that our plans might differ in the amounts of detail (or maybe not - I dunno , but I still think planning is a Good Thing. I'm not down on planning. Planning rocks. Me & planning - we're best friends. And so on.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 20Tigers
Instead you could say you do not enjoy taking time to plan things so prefer instead to take things as they come.


Sometimes, yes. But I'm not really an all-or-nothing man. Sometimes it's fun to let things develop. Sometimes a strict plan helps; sometimes a less strict plan helps. I'm not, I say not, against planning. I'm not sure that the OP's planning should only involve "What scales should I use?" though. OK, OK, maybe he didn't mean that. I'm backing away from the keyboard now ...
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Old 10-03-2012, 11:36 AM   #77
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Now I'm confused if this thread is about music or romantic and sex life advice...
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Old 10-03-2012, 11:39 AM   #78
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Totally can't wait to necrobump this thread in like 3 years...
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Old 10-03-2012, 12:00 PM   #79
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Anyway after we go back to C major open, personally I'd do a bass run from C3 on A-5 to G3 on E-6, play a big G Major open chord, then take my bow, 'cause it still resolves heavily to G major. Just close your eyes and let it happen....


If you go from a C Major to a G Major, thats a half cadence.

G-?-F-C-G

In C major, thats: V-?-IV-I-V

Which is a perfectly logical progression.

If you analyze it in G, you get: I-?-bVII-IV-I, but that bVII does absolutely NO GOOD if its trying to pull back to G Major. But if instead you process the bVII as a IV chord, you get better results.
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Old 10-03-2012, 12:23 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by mrkeka
Now I'm confused if this thread is about music or romantic and sex life advice...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hail
I love you alan


I'd say that's unambiguous.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hail
oh shut up with that /mu/ bullshit. fidget house shouldn't even be a genre, why in the world would it deserve its own subgenres you twat

Last edited by Sleepy__Head : 10-03-2012 at 12:27 PM.
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