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Old 10-23-2012, 01:38 PM   #2061
megano28
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Originally Posted by SteveHouse
It amazes me how appalled some of the Americans ITT were at Paddy's defense spending graph. What, did you think the "more than the next ten spenders combined" thing was a joke?



You're either disgusted or glad about those numbers here in the US it seems. They way they talk about it, it makes it sound as if it's necessary to compete when the reality is much different. That's probably why people are in awe here
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Old 10-23-2012, 01:40 PM   #2062
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Old 10-23-2012, 01:40 PM   #2063
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Originally Posted by willT08
This is what I'm not understanding in terms of what it means in reality. And I still really don't get it. I understand what you mean, but not how it would work in the real world.


Are we talking about Nuclear here?

I can't stand people who are vehemently anti-Nuclear energy.

Anyhow, the way out of the energy crisis is to perfect Nuclear Fusion. This much should be painfully obvious to everyone. We've already done it on a small scale, we now need to invest heavily in it until we can use it globally. It's energy on a whole 'nother scale to every alternative, and I think it's reasonable to assume that it could be done fairly cheaply whilst outdating every other form of energy production.


Nuclear (works today), Solar Power Satellites (Significant upfront costs but entirely possible with current technology), Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion (Was done successfully in the '30's IIRC), Ocean Wave power generation (concept is proven, needs research dollars), Thin Film Solar etc etc...

Fusion if we can contain it.
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Old 10-23-2012, 01:44 PM   #2064
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Originally Posted by Arby911

Fusion if we can contain it.

Fusion has been 5-10 years away since 1970.
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Old 10-23-2012, 01:44 PM   #2065
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Originally Posted by Arby911
Nuclear (works today), Solar Power Satellites (Significant upfront costs but entirely possible with current technology), Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion (Was done successfully in the '30's IIRC), Ocean Wave power generation (concept is proven, needs research dollars), Thin Film Solar etc etc...

Fusion if we can contain it.

I'm with you 100%.

Seems strange to me then that you seem to be preferring a candidate who at every turns seems to be against investment in green or renewable energy research. Seeing that you realize how big of a deal energy is, it must mean you're really putting the economy several tiers above everything else.

Whether you're right about who would sort the economy out is unimportant to me, it's just interesting to see.

EDIT:

No it hasn't Steve.
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Old 10-23-2012, 01:46 PM   #2066
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Originally Posted by megano28
Deny global warming? Come on man, putting words in my mouth? I said that this planet will recover long after we've gone extinct. You can go ahead and get all hippie claiming we need to save the planet, but the truth is that the planet doesn't need any saving. We do.

I'd appreciate it if the next time you were to reply, you didn't pull words out of your ass and claim I said them


...Was there any meaningful point to that then? Was it just, "It ain't da planet, it our speshiez"? I think most people who are for green energy understand that and they don't really mean the actual planet.
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Old 10-23-2012, 01:48 PM   #2067
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ITER's project won't start producing anything until 2019 and they need about €15 billion to get the experiment up and running. This is just for a test reactor.

It's ludicrous to claim that science has been anywhere near fusion since the 70's and make it out to be some pipe dream.
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Old 10-23-2012, 01:49 PM   #2068
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Originally Posted by willT08
I'm with you 100%.

Seems strange to me then that you seem to be preferring a candidate who at every turns seems to be against investment in green or renewable energy research. Seeing that you realize how big of a deal energy is, it must mean you're really putting the economy several tiers above everything else.

Whether you're right about who would sort the economy out is unimportant to me, it's just interesting to see.


Yes, at this point the economy trumps pretty much everything else, but even if it didn't it's not just about investing in alternative energy, it's about HOW to invest.

Simply giving companies a shitpot of money and saying 'go forth and prosper' is NOT a good plan, as has been shown repeatedly recently.

See the Ansari X Prize for one possible 'investment' model. Pay for results and ONLY results, but pay a LOT for said results.

I'm betting that Romney is a better judge of investment than Obama...
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Old 10-23-2012, 01:52 PM   #2069
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Originally Posted by Arby911

I'm betting that Romney is a better judge of investment than Obama...

I'm sure he would be if he wasn't opposed to investing in renewable energy research in the first place. He made it very clear last night. His plan for energy independence is to exploit coal, gas and oil and then tagged renewables on at the end I think. I know I've seen him say that investing in renewable energy has been a waste of time before.
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Old 10-23-2012, 01:52 PM   #2070
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Originally Posted by willT08
ITER's project won't start producing anything until 2019 and they need about €15 billion to get the experiment up and running. This is just for a test reactor.

It's ludicrous to claim that science has been anywhere near fusion since the 70's and make it out to be some pipe dream.

okay. then it's been "5-10 years away" as long as I've known it exists, which is most of my life.

I'm not calling it a pipe dream. I'm saying we shouldn't be relying on it developing, and that I'll believe it when I see it.
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Old 10-23-2012, 01:53 PM   #2071
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Originally Posted by SteveHouse
okay. then it's been "5-10 years away" as long as I've known it exists, which is most of my life.

That's what I'm saying, nobody in the field of Physics has made this claim.

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I'm not calling it a pipe dream. I'm saying we shouldn't be relying on it developing, and that I'll believe it when I see it.

It's the only sure-fire way out of the energy crisis. Take it or leave it.
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Old 10-23-2012, 02:03 PM   #2072
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Originally Posted by willT08
I'm sure he would be if he wasn't opposed to investing in renewable energy research in the first place. He made it very clear last night. His plan for energy independence is to exploit coal, gas and oil and then tagged renewables on at the end I think. I know I've seen him say that investing in renewable energy has been a waste of time before.


What other short term plan for energy independence would you have?

While we can agree that's not ideal, it's the only one that will work in the near term, right?

You may be right, and Romney may not accomplish anything useful in regard to alternative energy production.

In which case he would have the same record that Obama currently has, minus the Corporate largesse...
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Old 10-23-2012, 02:05 PM   #2073
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Originally Posted by willT08
That's what I'm saying, nobody in the field of Physics has made this claim.


It's the only sure-fire way out of the energy crisis. Take it or leave it.


Actually no, fission will accomplish that, we just need different reactors.

And Solar Power Satellites are possible today as well (technically if not politically).

Fusion would be nice, but it isn't necessary.
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Old 10-23-2012, 02:13 PM   #2074
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Actually no, fission will accomplish that, we just need different reactors.

What type of reactors are we talking about?

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And Solar Power Satellites are possible today as well (technically if not politically).
Really? Sounds mighty cool, will read up on them. But I can only imagine the shit storm that would brew about who gets where in space and national security risks and what not.

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Fusion would be nice, but it isn't necessary.

I think eventually it will be. Or will at least be a lot more practical than what we're doing now.

I mean after all, ITER's project aims to get 10x as much energy out as you put in and there's no reason why this couldn't be a reality if the several countries funding it now would really go all in on it.

Coming back to something you said earlier Arby. I don't see how we could possibly fund research purely on results. Unless it's literally them having to hand in their results

How do we propose scientists first start new projects into expensive areas like nuclear energy or particle physics? Leaving the state of your scientific research up to private companies seems kind of at odds with them being able to research efficiently.

EDIT: Just read up on Solar Power Satellites. Seem very very cool, but almost completely incompatible with the modern world.

Last edited by willT08 : 10-23-2012 at 02:15 PM.
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Old 10-23-2012, 02:17 PM   #2075
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Originally Posted by SteveHouse
It amazes me how appalled some of the Americans ITT were at Paddy's defense spending graph. What, did you think the "more than the next ten spenders combined" thing was a joke?

That's the standard reaction. It's a pretty hard to comprehend amount of cash when you think about it.
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Old 10-23-2012, 02:24 PM   #2076
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Originally Posted by willT08
What type of reactors are we talking about?



Fast Breeders in combination with seawater uranium extraction. Granted it's not a 'forever' solution either, but at 5 Billion years or until the sun goes out, I think I can live with that...
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Old 10-23-2012, 02:37 PM   #2077
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So, to talks about something different, do you guys reckon that if Romney ends up winning he would act as the mild governor Romney or as the steak-eating, red-blooded Mittens he would like the republican party to see him as?
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Old 10-23-2012, 02:51 PM   #2078
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So, to talks about something different, do you guys reckon that if Romney ends up winning he would act as the mild governor Romney or as the steak-eating, red-blooded Mittens he would like the republican party to see him as?



I'm betting that his past performance and history will make him significantly more moderate than he's been able to show.
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Old 10-23-2012, 04:00 PM   #2079
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Originally Posted by Arby911
I'm betting that his past performance and history will make him significantly more moderate than he's been able to show.


I disagree, I think he's come to a more moderate position now than what he's naturally at to try and win the election.
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Old 10-23-2012, 04:02 PM   #2080
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I disagree, I think he's come to a more moderate position now than what he's naturally at to try and win the election.


His time as Governor of Mass. shows that to likely be false.

Now granted it's possible that he was a moderate Governor in spite of his fascist tendencies, but it's a bit far fetched.
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