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Old 10-11-2012, 07:11 AM   #21
Caaarrl94
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haha thanks guys, really helpful overly helpful if anything, i think AlanHB summed it right up for me
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Old 10-11-2012, 09:41 AM   #22
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It's an altered dominant chord with a fair amount of tension #9. The tonal center of this is E and this is the chord that he uses, while maintaining that E tonality. It's just color and flavor. I agree with Alan that the rest is overthinking it.

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Old 10-11-2012, 09:59 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E7#9
E7#9 is based off of the altered scale, a.k.a the seventh mode of melodic minor (in this case F melodic minor).

Melodic minor is simply natural minor (6th mode of major) with a #6 and #7.

This chord doesn't exist naturally in any key, since melodic minor isn't a key.

It's usually used as a cadential chord V-i in a minor progression.

Not always though. Check out "Hottentot" by John Scofield as an example of it being used a "tonic" chord.



Also it's pure coincedence that's it's also my username...

Tune. It moves up a semitone as well, I believe.
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Old 10-11-2012, 12:16 PM   #24
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If anyone has heard 'Me and my Friends' by RHCP, this is a great example of where i like the sound of it.
How is it used in this song? What key?
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Old 10-12-2012, 02:37 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanHB
^^^ then he can employ accidentals to accommodate for clashes

So he should build his improvisational approach around being able to ear out what accidentals fit the chord on the fly?

that...sounds...effective.

Or he could learn a scale that is central to the melodic vocabulary over that type of chord, functioning as an altered dominant (altered scale) and learn to employ it and utilize it over a specific chord type.

Nah...that'd make it too systematic and sensible...
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Last edited by chronowarp : 10-12-2012 at 02:38 AM.
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Old 10-12-2012, 03:21 AM   #26
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^^^ I didn't say anything about using it "on the fly", but if you take note of what non diatonic notes are present in the chord, you can accommodate for them. This sounds much more logical than swapping to a completely different scale which may or may not work depending on how this particular chord is used in the key.
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Old 10-12-2012, 03:24 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanHB
^^^ I didn't say anything about using it "on the fly", but if you take note of what non diatonic notes are present in the chord, you can accommodate for them. This sounds much more logical than swapping to a completely different scale which may or may nother apply depending on how this particular chord is used in the key.


...which would be...

the roundabout way of organizing those relationships with a constant (the altered scale).

When would you not want to use altered as an option over a V7alt? ...Tons of blues/jazz players use altered over it even if it's a I7 in a blues.

Your perspective is really tired and makes less and less sense the more you try to stretch universally over every musical scenario.
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Last edited by chronowarp : 10-12-2012 at 03:25 AM.
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Old 10-12-2012, 03:32 AM   #28
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Ok I'll bite. Do I have to use the altered scale if it has less notes in common with the key than the chord in question does? Does application of this altered scale change depending on whether this chord is the I, V or II? How come Hendrix didn't use the altered scale when that's what he was supposed to do?
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Old 10-12-2012, 03:54 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanHB
Ok I'll bite. Do I have to use the altered scale if it has less notes in common with the key than the chord in question does? Does application of this altered scale change depending on whether this chord is the I, V or II? How come Hendrix didn't use the altered scale when that's what he was supposed to do?


I'll bite...

Your approach, if you want to even call it that, is so vague, condescending, and privileged that I can't even properly deconstruct why I think it's so stupid. In fact, I'm not even sure I understand your approach, since every post you make about subjects like these are "lol scales", "lol accidentals", which only give me a glimpse into your thinking and thereafter I have to fill in the blanks. That's what I mean by privileged: you don't actually disclose or endorse your view - because then you might be responsible for it. Instead, you just inject comments in a matter-of-fact way.

If you want to be able to stay afloat in situations (like Jazz) where you are dealing with more complex, chromatic harmonies that change at a fast rate, then you need to either adopt or create an approach that is somewhat universal to the types of harmonies and sequences you will encounter.

There is no "one size fits all" method, because everyone's brain works differently. HOWEVER, I feel safe in saying, with an amount of certainty, that forming your improvisational approach around "lol scales, useless" is probably the least beneficial and most backwards approach I can think of at this moment in time.

I'm not advocating chord-scales on a scale-per-chord basis, however, if you want to be successful in dealing with altered dominants or any harmony that cannot be derived from the harmonized major scale, then you're going to be in trouble if you don't learn & utilize what the variations of the mel. min scale have to offer.

Not only in using the scale as an organizational tool that offers numerous visual, and tactile benefits like learning and building it around arpeggios in each position, and ingraining in your muscle memory and mind where the various altered extensions of the chord sit relative to the base shape...

But in learning and building that "sound" that is integral to any modern jazz player.

If you're playing a hendrix tune...minor pent over V7#9 - great
If you're not...altered scale.

What other scenarios can you think of that offer a vastly different approach?
What reason does a player have to not fill in the blanks around various chord types w/ the appropriate scales that give you all the applicable extensions of the harmony?
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Old 10-12-2012, 04:20 AM   #30
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I don't really understand how "use the altered scale" isn't a "one size fits all" approach, but hey I think we both know eachothers approaches , we disagree and most likely have the same end result.
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Old 10-12-2012, 04:44 AM   #31
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How can you systematically assign a subset of notes used beyond the outline of the harmony without attributing a scale to a chord type?

You build a unique set of notes for each circumstance, and that is supposed to be functionally viable in improvisation?
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Old 10-12-2012, 06:53 AM   #32
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By assigning a particular scale to a chord you are a) limiting your melodic options and b) thinking too much. Try switching scales every chord/few chords of Giant Steps...

Look at the chord, know the basic chord tones, embellish said chord tones.
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Old 10-12-2012, 08:16 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griffRG7321
By assigning a particular scale to a chord you are a) limiting your melodic options and b) thinking too much. Try switching scales every chord/few chords of Giant Steps...

Look at the chord, know the basic chord tones, embellish said chord tones.

Limiting your melodic options....by...building a functional series of notes that match the extended harmonies of a chord around the arpeggio shape of a chord type...

...whhaaatttttt?

Did you read my ****ing post, for the love of God. Do you people read things?
Who the **** treats major ii-V's on a per chord basis? Why would you even bother thinking per chord on giant steps when you can break it up until functional series of ii-V's? Why. Nobody is endorsing or suggesting that.
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Old 10-12-2012, 09:49 AM   #34
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I always loved the use of it on Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon

in the cadence at the end of Breathe where it goes G -> D7#9 -> C -> Em
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Old 10-12-2012, 10:07 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronowarp
Limiting your melodic options....by...building a functional series of notes that match the extended harmonies of a chord around the arpeggio shape of a chord type...


...Making the assumption that the altered scale is the only thing you can play over an altered dominant chord.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chronowarp
Who the **** treats major ii-V's on a per chord basis? Why would you even bother thinking per chord on giant steps when you can break it up until functional series of ii-V's? Why. Nobody is endorsing or suggesting that.


Some people would. The point was that you haven't got time to think in scales when you're dealing with fast chord changes.
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Old 10-12-2012, 10:09 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seljer
I always loved the use of it on Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon

in the cadence at the end of Breathe where it goes G -> D7#9 -> C -> Em

Nice.
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:16 PM   #37
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|B7#5| E7#9| Am7|D9b5|
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:43 PM   #38
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Steely Dan style intro

Cmaj7 - Bm7#5 - Abma7 - Am7#5
Dmaj7 - Dbm7#5 - Cmaj7 - Bm7#5
Ebmaj7 - E7#9

G13 - F13..... and away you go.

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Old 10-12-2012, 02:31 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griffRG7321
...Making the assumption that the altered scale is the only thing you can play over an altered dominant chord.

Who assumed that?
Can you show me where I said that?



Quote:
Originally Posted by griffRG7321
Some people would. The point was that you haven't got time to think in scales when you're dealing with fast chord changes.

What do you have time to think in?

Remember when I said something about there isn't a one-size-fits-all approach to improvisation and organizing notes?
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Last edited by chronowarp : 10-12-2012 at 02:32 PM.
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Old 10-12-2012, 03:36 PM   #40
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