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Old 10-12-2012, 10:18 AM   #81
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God and the Devil,
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For themselves.
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Old 10-12-2012, 10:20 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by slapsymcdougal
Miracles totally happen.

Came in here to post this.

Miracles happen every single day. I don't care what the scientists say.

But seriously, I have no idea what you're even asking. The question doesn't make any logical sense. The Garden of Eden has a different set of realities than earth anyway. Satan according to the bible is a pretty powerful motherfucker. He wouldn't perform miracles even if he could though, that's not how he rolls.
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Old 10-12-2012, 10:33 AM   #83
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You've been here almost 10 years and you still expect this????

omg i cant believe the site has been around that long. i wonder if they used computers bakc then or was it just a big stone wall tht everyone carved messages into?????//
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Old 10-12-2012, 10:43 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Vintage024
If satan is capable of performing a miricle, then how do we know all miricals aren't just satan?

Nah, simple. You will know them by their fruit. Grapes aren't gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles, are they?
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Old 10-12-2012, 10:44 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Till From Kenig
Nah, simple. You will know them by their fruit. Grapes aren't gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles, are they?


Roses have thorns and pineapples are spikey.
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Old 10-12-2012, 11:35 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by SlackerBabbath
That's untrue. Satan is definately in the OT. Specificaly he's in the books of Job, Zechariah, Chronicles, Psalms, Numbers, Samuel and Kings. He isn't always called 'Satan' though, sometimes he's called 'Lucifer' and also 'adversary'.

Whaddaya know, you've schooled me again
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:29 PM   #87
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Another problem.

You can't trust the bible. It's been translated and re-translated so many times that you can't trust any of it... AT ALL.

Original translations tries to translate words into other languages that didn't have suitable substitute words and just had to make do. And that happened again... and again... and again.

Stop trying to be smart ass and do some real philosophy.

A better argument... which is actually a proper philosophical argument is the existence of Hell.

If God created Hell then he knew his creation was going to fuq up, thus creation isn't perfect.

If Satan created Hell then others other than God can create, meaning God isn't Omnipotent; as religion claims.
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:47 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by ChemicalFire
Another problem.

You can't trust the bible. It's been translated and re-translated so many times that you can't trust any of it... AT ALL.

Original translations tries to translate words into other languages that didn't have suitable substitute words and just had to make do. And that happened again... and again... and again.


My favourite example of this is how they converted 'young girl' into 'virgin' when compiling the King James (I think), which changes rather a lot.

Quote:
Stop trying to be smart ass and do some real philosophy.

A better argument... which is actually a proper philosophical argument is the existence of Hell.

If God created Hell then he knew his creation was going to fuq up, thus creation isn't perfect.

If Satan created Hell then others other than God can create, meaning God isn't Omnipotent; as religion claims.


Omnipotence doesn't make sense anyway. You don't need an example of it not working; it's impossible to even imagine a universe where omnipotence is possible.
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Old 10-12-2012, 01:52 PM   #89
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snip


Loads of interesting info, cheers.

For anyone interested, here's Mark Twain's 'The Mysterious Stranger', interesting read.
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Old 10-12-2012, 03:00 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Vintage024

So Satan appeared to Eve as a taking snake,


No. There's no mention in the bible of satan. It's just a good ol' talking snake.
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Old 10-12-2012, 03:39 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Todd Hart
My favourite example of this is how they converted 'young girl' into 'virgin' when compiling the King James (I think), which changes rather a lot.


Funnily enough, the verse in Isaiah where this mistranslation occured isn't even a Messianic prophecy. All Isaiah 7:14 is saying is that the enemies of Isreal will be defeated by the time the child is old enough to eat solid food. It's a prophecy with about a two year shelf life. I have no idea why the gospel writers would have thought it applied to the Messiah.
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Old 10-13-2012, 04:53 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Till From Kenig
Nah, simple. You will know them by their fruit. Grapes aren't gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles, are they?

No, but we get blackberries from thorny 'bramble bushes'.
Does that make blackberries 'Satanic'?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Hart
My favourite example of this is how they converted 'young girl' into 'virgin' when compiling the King James (I think), which changes rather a lot.

This is from Isaiah 7:14.
"Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel." (NIV)

The mistranslation actualy happened when they wrote the 'Septuagint', which was the Greek version of the Hebrew Bible that was written in the late 3rd century BC, about 200 years before Christianity existed and about 1800 years before the King James Bible was written. This mistranslation came to be included in the later Christian Bible because the early 'gentile' (non-Jews) Christians would naturaly read the Greek Septuagint rather than the Hebrew Bible because Greek was much more common than Hebrew, because it was the language of international trade in the Middle East and around the Mediterranean at the time.

The original Hebrew word that was used was 'almah' meaning 'young woman', but when it was translated into Greek, the word used was 'parthenos', which is Greek for 'virgin'.

Of course, Christians prefer to believe the mistranslated version rather than the original version because they believe it to be an earlier prophecy of the birth of Jesus, because the Gospels say he was born to a virgin.
But there's another problem with that text too, which the Chistians would realise if they were to actualy be bothered to read the whole section of text that the single line of 'Isaiah 7:14' is taken from, and note it's historical context.

To summarize the text in question, in the 8th century BC, Assyria was a great regional power. The smaller nations of Syria (often called Aram), ruled by king Rezin, and the Kingdom of Israel (often called Ephraim because of the main tribe), under king Pekah, had been vassals of Assyria, but in 735 BC decided to break away. Ahaz, the king of Judah at that time, was loyal to Assyria and refused to join them, so king Rezin and king Prekah prepared to invade and depose him and install their own choice of king in his place.
In the face of the invasion king Ahaz and his court are all afraid, but the prophet Isaiah tells Ahaz that his enemies will not succeed. Ahaz is reluctant to accept this prophecy, and is told to ask God for a sign showing that the oracle is a true one. Ahaz refuses to ask for a sign, saying that he will not put God to the test, but Isaiah replies that he will have his sign whether he asks for it or not.

And the sign that Isaiah prophecises is the one in question here in Isaiah 7:14, where it says that a young woman will fall pregnant. Although it's never mentioned which young woman this will be, the pregnancy in question is often considered to be that of Ahaz's queen. But even if it wasn't his queen, it must certainly have been someone during the time of Ahaz's life for Ahaz himself to see the sign that he refused to ask God for but which Isaiah says he's going to get anyway. As this all happens in 735 BC, (that's 735 'Before Christ') it's obviously hard to see how Ahaz could acknowledge the prophecy coming true 735 years later when Jesus was born and Ahaz was long dead.

So not only is the supposed prophecy of the virgin birth of Jesus based upon a mistranslation, it's also based upon a quote that's taken completely out of context.

So what why would the Gospels claim that Jesus was born to a virgin anyway?
It actualy looks quite likely that it could have simply been a case of religious 'one-upmanship'.
There is a Mithraic temple at Kangavar in western Iran, which is dedicated to "Anahita, the Immaculate Virgin Mother of the Lord Mithra." which is dated at around 200 BC, (200 years before Jesus existed) so there was certainly already a religious tradition of 'virgin birth' in the Middle East before the birth of Jesus.

Mithra is the Zoroastrian divinity of covenant and oath, and he's often depicted as a saviour, much like Jesus is. Zoroastrianism is an Iranian (Persian) religion that developed pretty much alongside Judaism and they have quite a lot in common with each other.

So, a little bit of research results in not just the one usual argument against the validity of the virgin birth of Jesus, but three seperate arguments against it. That makes for a much stronger argument than just arguing on a point of mistranslation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahteh
No. There's no mention in the bible of satan.

Where on earth are you getting this misinformation? Satan is mentioned in the Bible, he's present in both the Old Testament (which is basicaly the 'Hebrew Bible' or the 'Tanakh' of Judaism) and the New Testament of the Christian Bible.
For example...

Old Testament
'One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them. The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”
Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”
Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”
“Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”
(Job 1:6-11.)


New Testament
'And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, "All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine."
And Jesus answered and said unto him, "Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." '
(Luke 4:5-8)
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Old 10-13-2012, 05:07 AM   #93
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This thread reminds me of this funny post I stumbled across the web a while ago:



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Old 10-13-2012, 06:00 AM   #94
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There ain't no devil, there's just god when he's drunk.
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I put a ton of my capital into SW Airlines... The next day, THE NEXT DAY these nutters fly into the WTC. What the hell? Apparently no one wanted to fly anymore, and I was like "What gives? God damnit Osama, let me win a fuggin' game!"
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Old 10-13-2012, 06:03 AM   #95
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"intelligent" and "beliefs" don't belong in the same sentence.


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I put a ton of my capital into SW Airlines... The next day, THE NEXT DAY these nutters fly into the WTC. What the hell? Apparently no one wanted to fly anymore, and I was like "What gives? God damnit Osama, let me win a fuggin' game!"
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Old 10-13-2012, 06:24 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by IRISH_PUNK13
There ain't no devil, there's just god when he's drunk.

Hmmm, can we actualy consider God's drinking habits? Well, in a way, we can, if we consider Jesus as God in the Christian fashion.

In the time of Jesus, everybody drank wine, even the children, because it was safer than drinking water. Remember, this is a time before water purification techniques had been invented, in a land that has very few fresh water mountain streams and springs, so wine was a very important source of H2O.

In Europe around the same time, people drank a form of beer instead because the European climate is better for growing the grain that beer is made from, whereas in the Middle East where Jesus lived, the climate was ideal for growing grapes.

In both Europe and the Middle East, these alcoholic drinks came in different strengths, weak, average and strong. The weak stuff was the everyday drink for the whole population, the average stuff was possibly drunk with a meal and the stronger stuff was reserved for celebration.

It's interesting that the wine that Jesus is said to have 'created' from water at the Marrage at Cana was particularly strong stuff, (obviously because it was being used for the purposes of celebration)

The water into wine miracle apparently came about at the 'Marriage at Cana' because all the wine had run out at the wedding celebration. Mary (Jesus' mother) asks Jesus to do something about it and Jesus replies "O Woman, what have I to do with you? My hour has not yet come." His mother then said to the servants, "Do whatever he tells you." (John 2:3-5)
Jesus then ordered the servants to fill the empty containers with water and to draw out some and take it to the chief waiter. After tasting the water that had become wine, and not knowing what Jesus had done, he remarked to the bridegroom that he had departed from the custom of serving the best wine first by serving it last. This custom that is mentioned is still followed today. You serve the best tasting, and above all, 'strongest' wine first, gradualy serving the lesser quality wines as the celebration continues. This is because alcohol affects the sense of taste, so you only really remember the quality of the first few drinks you have, so the best is served first in order to gain a reputation as a good host, all of which explains why Jesus had the chief waiter try the wine, because, not only would he be the most qualified person to tell the difference between good and bad wine, but he would also be one of the few people who was actualy still sober enough to tell the difference after all the other wine had been drunk.

So, did Mary know that he could create particularly strong wine from water? Well the text certainly suggests that, so how would she know? Possibly because it's something that he's already done in the privacy of their home.
So, we can kinda conclude from Biblical text that Jesus was probably in the habit of drinking strong wine.

Incidently, do you know what 'Messiah' ('Christ' in Greek) means? It means 'annointed one' and the holy 'anointing oil' that they used for such purposes as 'annointing', (which usualy involved pouring it on the forehead) known as 'Chrism', is pretty powerful stuff by all accounts.
Exodus 30:22-25 gives us the recipie;

* 500 shekels (about 6 kg) of myrrh,
* half as much (about 3 kg) of fragrant cinnamon,
* 250 shekels (about 3 kg) of kaneh bosm,
* 500 shekels (about 6kg) of cassia,
* a hin (about 4 L) of olive oil.

That 'kaneh bosm' stuff is the interesting ingredient because it's variously translated as either 'calamus' or 'cannabis'.
Of course we're all familiar with cannabis and it's effects, and seeing as how almost one sixth of the mixture is pure cannabis, suspended in an oil that allows the THC content of the cannabis to enter the bloodstream via the skin... well you can imagine it's effects... but if it's calamus, that's also pretty interesting too, because calamus, which is a tall perennial wetland plant, is also a psychotropic hallucinogen. Either way, whether it's cannabis or calamus, it's a pretty powerful mixture... and this is the stuff that Jesus, as someone who was considered to be the Messiah, would more than likely have been annointed with by someone at some point.

Cannabis was also historicaly used as an incense in ancient Judea, often being burned in small enclosures such as tents to get rid of pests, like flies for example, and people would naturaly sit in the same small enclosures while cannabis was being burned, breathing in the fumes at the same time.

Conclusion? Jesus, along with many other people from his time, was probably a stoner as well as a drinker of strong wine.

If Jesus is God, then God is a party animal.
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Old 10-13-2012, 06:29 AM   #97
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a miracle isnt a said error in the programming of the universe. its a natural low chance event happening. if satan existed and was able to slip thru the laws of the universe and become a snake and speak english, hes obviously hacking.
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Old 10-13-2012, 06:50 AM   #98
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You think THAT'S weird ?
Adam and Eve were the first people on Earth, right ? They had two sons, Cain and Abel..
Cain and Abel got married....

TO WHO ???

Where did these mystery bitches come from ??

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Old 10-13-2012, 06:52 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Necrolust
You think THAT'S weird ?
Adam and Eve were the first people on Earth, right ? They had two sons, Cain and Abel..
Cain and Abel got married....

TO WHO ???

Where did these mystery bitches come from ??

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Where do you think sheeple come from?
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Old 10-13-2012, 07:01 AM   #100
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One day I'm going to go back through all of Slacker's posts and print them out for future study. Bravo.
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