Go Back   UG Community @ Ultimate-Guitar.Com > UG Community > The Pit
User Name  
Password
Search:

Reply
Old 10-13-2012, 07:11 AM   #101
SlackerBabbath
Est. 1966.
 
SlackerBabbath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Burnley, UK
Quote:
Originally Posted by Necrolust
You think THAT'S weird ?
Adam and Eve were the first people on Earth, right ? They had two sons, Cain and Abel..
Cain and Abel got married....

TO WHO ???

Where did these mystery bitches come from ??

*Theremin Music*


Firstly, there is no record of Abel being married in the Bible. He is apparently murdered by Cain before he had a chance to marry.

Secondly, according to the Bible, Adam lived past 900 years old. Do you really think the two of them had only two children in all that time? Remember, this was way before contraception was invented.

Thirdly, the 'Book of Jubilees' states that Cain settled down and married his sister 'Awan', who bore his first son, 'Enoch', approximately 196 years after the creation of Adam. Cain then establishes the first city, naming it after his son, builds a house, and lives there until it collapses on him, killing him in the same year that Adam dies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEternalJew
One day I'm going to go back through all of Slacker's posts and print them out for future study. Bravo.


__________________
“Our life is what our thoughts make it.”
― Marcus Aurelius

Slacker's Art Website.

Last edited by SlackerBabbath : 10-13-2012 at 07:37 AM.
SlackerBabbath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2012, 10:04 AM   #102
MrDo0m
Blessed Sisyphus
 
MrDo0m's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Satan appeared to Eve as a talking snake because we characterize that with being a slithery liar (a poisonous snake slithers and spits venom from its mouth). Of course, the way I see it, there wasn't literally a talking snake, nor does "Satan" literally have a physical body, but is just a representation of evil in human nature.
MrDo0m is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2012, 06:24 AM   #103
SlackerBabbath
Est. 1966.
 
SlackerBabbath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Burnley, UK
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrDo0m
Satan appeared to Eve as a talking snake because we characterize that with being a slithery liar (a poisonous snake slithers and spits venom from its mouth). Of course, the way I see it, there wasn't literally a talking snake, nor does "Satan" literally have a physical body, but is just a representation of evil in human nature.


As mentioned earlier, Satan could not have been the snake depicted in the literature of the story of Adam and Eve because during this time Satan is considered as being fully under God's control and unable to act without God's permission.

But what is interesting here is that according to the text of the Bible, we can consider that evil existed just as soon as man existed, so, if Satan was unable to act without God's permission, who created evil? Myst have been God himself, right? But wouldn't we naturaly consider the creator of evil as 'evil' himself?
Quite a conundrum isn't it?

Y'see, the story is actualy less about the existence of evil in the world and more about the existence of free will. According to the Bible, God gave us free will to make our choices. Of course, that doesn't mean that he's happy with any choice we make, he apparently still get's pissed with us if we make what he considers to be the wrong choice, (which is apparently why he provides people with rules like the Commandments, so that we know what the right and wrong choices are) but that's the point of the snake in the story, he represents the 'choice' of disobedience to God.

The moral of the story is basicaly "be obedient to God", it states that you are free to be disobedient, but if you are disobedient it won't end well for you.
__________________
“Our life is what our thoughts make it.”
― Marcus Aurelius

Slacker's Art Website.
SlackerBabbath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2012, 10:14 PM   #104
ron666
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vintage024
Yo pit. I'd love to hear your take on this.

So Satan appeared to Eve as a taking snake,

A talking animal is a mirical right?

If satan is capable of performing a miricle, then how do we know all miricals aren't just satan?

How do we know its not just satan "answering" "our Prayers"

That's just a thought i have. I would love to hear some people's thoughts about it.

Don't be a smart-ass.


Yes, that is a good point. Remember Satan is called the "Great Deceiver" so he can appear any way he wants in order to deceive and fool us.

A lot of religions can be "false fronts" for Satan to use. We think we are praying to God, but we are actually praying to Satan.

One way to see through this deception is to see what the end results of what a religious figure asks us to do? In other words, are the end results evil? If so then Satan is probably behind it.

For Example, let us say that a religious leader (I will not specify any particular one to avoid starting an argument) asks us to blow up a jet airplane. Well this would be an act of mass murder, would it not? I would say that there is a strong possibility that Satan is behind the religion that this leader is espousing. Right?

ron666
ron666 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2012, 11:48 PM   #105
crazysam23_Atax
Burning away
 
crazysam23_Atax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Cal-eye-forn-ia
Quote:
Originally Posted by theogonia777
I won't be a smartass about this if you stop being a dumbass about it.

Theo, you stole my idea...
__________________
Tunes?

Bandcamp

Now working on my upcoming EP "Discarnate". See the expected track list on my bandcamp.



Terry Prachett is funnier than you! Discworld
crazysam23_Atax is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2012, 03:51 AM   #106
SlackerBabbath
Est. 1966.
 
SlackerBabbath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Burnley, UK
Y'know, it's interesting to consider that the whole story of Satan's fall from Heaven may just be a misinterpretation of the text.

The fall of Satan is apparently interpreted from Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28.

This is from Isaiah.
“How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn!
How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low!
You said in your heart, I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God
I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north;
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’ "

But is it really talking about Satan? Possibly not, because that verse is followed by this:

"Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, who made the world like a desert and overthrew its cities, who did not let his prisoners go home?’
All the kings of the nations lie in glory, each in his own tomb; but you are cast out, away from your grave, like a loathed branch, clothed with the slain, those pierced by the sword, who go down to the stones of the pit, like a dead body trampled underfoot.
You will not be joined with them in burial, because you have destroyed your land, you have slain your people."

That would seem to be describing a mortal man, not an immortal angel. It seems to describe someone who was a tyrant leader and a warlord, someone who did great damage to his own nation.

This is from Ezekiel:
‘In the pride of your heart you say, “I am a god;
I sit on the throne of a god in the heart of the seas.”
But you are a mere mortal and not a god, though you think you are as wise as a god.
Are you wiser than Daniel? Is no secret hidden from you?
By your wisdom and understanding you have gained wealth for yourself and amassed gold and silver in your treasuries.
By your great skill in trading you have increased your wealth, and because of your wealth your heart has grown proud. "

So he's certainly a mortal according to that, and a wealthy one by all accounts

Ezekiel continues....
“Son of man, araise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord God:

“You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings.

So, he's apparently the 'king of Tyre', which is an ancient city in Lebanon, and although it says that he was in Eden, that doesn't mean that he was there in the days of Adam and Eve. Y'see, Eden was apparently a real nation, somewhere in the region of Mesopotamia by all accounts, Genesis descibes it's location thus:

"A river watering the garden flowed from Eden; from there it was separated into four headwaters. The name of the first is the Pishon; it winds through the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold. (The gold of that land is good; aromatic resin and onyx are also there.) The name of the second river is the Gihon; it winds through the entire land of Cush. The name of the third river is the Tigris; it runs along the east side of Ashur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates."

Notice that it mentions Havilah, where one can find good quality gold and onyx which this 'King of Tyre' apparently has in abundance.
I don't think any of this is about Satan at all, I think it's just about a corrupt king who thought of himself as a god.
__________________
“Our life is what our thoughts make it.”
― Marcus Aurelius

Slacker's Art Website.
SlackerBabbath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2012, 04:24 AM   #107
snipelfritz
UG's Beautiful Butterfly
 
snipelfritz's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Milwaukee
God dammit, Vintage024, we older users are supposed to be awesome and wise, not whatever you're trying to do.
__________________
BOOM-SHAKALAKALAKA-BOOM-SHAKALAKUNGA
snipelfritz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2012, 09:44 PM   #108
Tonganation
UG's AIC Fanatic
 
Tonganation's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Minnesota, USA
Quote:
Originally Posted by ron666
Yes, that is a good point. Remember Satan is called the "Great Deceiver" so he can appear any way he wants in order to deceive and fool us.

A lot of religions can be "false fronts" for Satan to use. We think we are praying to God, but we are actually praying to Satan.

One way to see through this deception is to see what the end results of what a religious figure asks us to do? In other words, are the end results evil? If so then Satan is probably behind it.

For Example, let us say that a religious leader (I will not specify any particular one to avoid starting an argument) asks us to blow up a jet airplane. Well this would be an act of mass murder, would it not? I would say that there is a strong possibility that Satan is behind the religion that this leader is espousing. Right?

ron666

So God would never order an act of mass murder? The fact that God orders Moses to slaughter the Canaanites in the books of Exodus and Numbers, plus his command of Joshua to slaughter those in the city of Jericho seems to contradict that.
Tonganation is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 07:11 AM   #109
SlackerBabbath
Est. 1966.
 
SlackerBabbath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Burnley, UK
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonganation
So God would never order an act of mass murder? The fact that God orders Moses to slaughter the Canaanites in the books of Exodus and Numbers, plus his command of Joshua to slaughter those in the city of Jericho seems to contradict that.


If a political leader today said to you "We must go and wipe out such and such a nation because God says we have to." would you believe him?

If not, then why would you believe that God had anything to do with Moses ordering the slaughter of Canaanites?
__________________
“Our life is what our thoughts make it.”
― Marcus Aurelius

Slacker's Art Website.
SlackerBabbath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 07:34 AM   #110
JohnnyGenzale
Bitter old sod
 
JohnnyGenzale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Sweden
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vintage024
Yo pit. I'd love to hear your take on this.

So Satan appeared to Eve as a taking snake,

A talking animal is a mirical right?

If satan is capable of performing a miricle, then how do we know all miricals aren't just satan?

How do we know its not just satan "answering" "our Prayers"

That's just a thought i have. I would love to hear some people's thoughts about it.

Don't be a smart-ass.


You've been registered for 9 years and only now we get to bask in your intelligence?

For shame!
__________________
sometimes I see us in a cymbal splash or in the sound of a car crash

Last edited by JohnnyGenzale : 10-16-2012 at 08:52 AM.
JohnnyGenzale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 07:43 AM   #111
Casketcreep
Call me Elliot.
 
Casketcreep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland
Nowhere in the bible does it say that the animal in the garden of eden was the devil.
It is just referred to as the serpent.

Same as the apple. It never specifies what it was, it just says fruit. So for all we know it could have been OP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldEscape
Here's a better question - If God is all-forgiving, why can't God forgive Lucifer?


God traditionally treats angels differently from man. Men are the ones he loves most, which caused the initial rift in heaven.



/not a christian at all, I just like to take a fleeting interest in the bible for shits and giggles.
__________________
Do you like silly Northern Irish horror punk?
Little Miss Stakes Bandcamp
Little Miss Stakes Facebook

New E.P available now.
Casketcreep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 08:46 AM   #112
Ninja#117
Registered User
 
Ninja#117's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Jacksonville, FLorida
Slacker the last two pages have raised my IQ roughly 5-6 points. Not religious at all myself but badass info work.
__________________
Knowledge is power
Ninja#117 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 08:46 AM   #113
SlackerBabbath
Est. 1966.
 
SlackerBabbath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Burnley, UK
Quote:
Originally Posted by Casketcreep
Nowhere in the bible does it say that the animal in the garden of eden was the devil.
It is just referred to as the serpent.

Same as the apple. It never specifies what it was, it just says fruit. So for all we know it could have been OP.

Yeah, that's true, the fruit of the 'Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil' is only considered as an apple by tradition, not from Biblical scripture. But interestingly, if the story of Adam and Eve were true, it'd be taking place about 6000 years ago, during the 'Neolithic Revolution', around the time when humans first developed perminantly settled agriculture (which civilisation developed from) and gave up nomadic and semi-nomadic lifestyles. According to the Bible, it'd also be happening in the place where we know that perminantly settled agriculture was first developed too, in the region of Mesopotamia (Iraq) because that's where the Book of Genesis states that the Garden of Eden was, but the are is also archeologicaly known as the 'cradle of civilization'

Interestingly, fruit was probably quite important in this development in human history. Y'see, crops like grain can still be grown by semi-nomadic people because it only takes about three months to grow such a crop before it is then harvested and the people move on to their next destination with their fresh supplies. Fruit trees are different. They take years to grow before they even provide anything to harvest, and during that time of growth, they need protecting from the wildlife, particularly large herbivours like elephants, which were certainly present in that area at that time.

And guess what the earliest fruit to be domesticated in this way is considered to be?

Apples apparently, which we know from the archeological remains of very ancient orchards with walls around them in the area of Mesopotamia. Interestingly, a word that is synonymous with the Garden of Eden, 'paradise', is derived from a Persian word meaning 'walled enclosure'.

We can also tie Eve (woman) in with the Neolithic development of the domesticating and growing of fruit.
In most hunter/gatherer tribes, it is the males that traditionaly hunt and the females that gather and it's also the females that have what is sometimes regarded as 'secret knowledge' as to where to find cirtain foods and how to process them to get rid of any poisons they may contain. In Australia for instance, the women in traditional Aboriginal hunter/gatherer tribes have an incredible knowledge of sometimes quite complicated food processing. The women are also usualy responsible for any growing of crops that may be required.
So it was probably the women who developed agriculture, especialy the domestication and growing of fruit.

This could have great religious significance, y'see, as far as we can tell, the Neolithic nomadic hunter/gatherers worshipped a 'Mother Goddess'. Mother goddesses are usualy linked with the earth, such as 'Mother Nature' and any food that was hunted or gathered would naturaly have been considered as a gift from her. But imagine how growing your own food would affect that belief. It would mean that the deity they worshipped was no longer considered to be providing them with food, the women were, with their knowledge of agriculture.
There wouldn't be any need for that particular deity any more, it would effectively be the end of that religion, and it would be the women's fault.

Remember what Adam and Eve's punishment was for eating the fruit? It was expulsion from the Garden into the wilderness, in other words, they became nomadic again.

The Genesis narrative makes an interesting statement there.

"And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever: Therefore, the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life."

Notice that bolded phrase, 'as one of us...'
It would appear that God essentially stopped Adam and Eve from becoming gods themselves, so the expulsion may not have been a punishment for disobeying God but rather a means of prevention. If previous generations considered their food to be provided by a deity, and if that role was now taken by women, then it's not unreasonable to consider those women as attempting to become 'god-like', which is seen as a great sin in practicaly every culture today and probably was back then too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Casketcreep
God traditionally treats angels differently from man. Men are the ones he loves most, which caused the initial rift in heaven.

Apparently, angels do not have free will and cannot act without God's permission, infact, they could even be considered as aspects of God himself. For example let's look at the names of some of the archangels and their meanings.
Raphael means "God's healing".
Uriel means "Fire of God".
Sealtiel means "Intercessor of God"
Barachiel means "Blessing of God."

Considering that Satan was an archangel himself, he shouldn't be any different to the rest of them, unless God gave him free will of course.
Infact, according to Islam, Satan (or Iblis as Muslims call him) isn't considered as an angel at all for this very reason, but rather as a 'Jinn', one of the three sentient creations of God (man, jinn and angels) who rather than being created from earth, like humans, were created from fire, and, like human beings, can also be good, evil, or neutrally benevolent.
This is where the mythology of 'genies' comes from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninja#117
Slacker the last two pages have raised my IQ roughly 5-6 points. Not religious at all myself but badass info work.

__________________
“Our life is what our thoughts make it.”
― Marcus Aurelius

Slacker's Art Website.

Last edited by SlackerBabbath : 10-16-2012 at 09:03 AM.
SlackerBabbath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 08:57 AM   #114
Casketcreep
Call me Elliot.
 
Casketcreep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland
Yeah but the agricultural revolution didn't happen because the world is only 6000 years old.
Why don't you pick up a book some time and learn a bit of science... jesus.. people these days.



In all seriousness though, you're awesome.
__________________
Do you like silly Northern Irish horror punk?
Little Miss Stakes Bandcamp
Little Miss Stakes Facebook

New E.P available now.
Casketcreep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 08:59 AM   #115
Ninja#117
Registered User
 
Ninja#117's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Jacksonville, FLorida
You should seriously hit up a few churches during service. Imagine the minds that could be blown.

I could always debate with others on some of the topics you discussed but i had never truly studied what i was debating against. A grave mistake i now have seen shown back to me in spades. I had the logic of your posts without the info to back it up.
__________________
Knowledge is power
Ninja#117 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 09:03 AM   #116
Casketcreep
Call me Elliot.
 
Casketcreep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland
Ninja this may come as a surprise to you, but churchs don't really open the floor for debate. That would be horribly detrimental to the entire organisation.
__________________
Do you like silly Northern Irish horror punk?
Little Miss Stakes Bandcamp
Little Miss Stakes Facebook

New E.P available now.
Casketcreep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 09:13 AM   #117
SlackerBabbath
Est. 1966.
 
SlackerBabbath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Burnley, UK
Quote:
Originally Posted by Casketcreep
Ninja this may come as a surprise to you, but churchs don't really open the floor for debate. That would be horribly detrimental to the entire organisation.

That's true, but some denominations, such as the Jehovah's Witnesses for example, visit you at your own home and their members tend to relish a debate.

There's actualy a Witness centre (known as a Kindom Hall) just around the corner from my house and it's members quite regularly walk up my street knocking on doors. It used to be that the elder members would knock on my door, until I convinced one of them that evolution could possibly exist as a tool of God's creation and that the two don't necessarily have to contradict each other, ever since then, it's only been the younger 'trainees' that knock on my door.

I'm sure they get sent to my house as a training exercise.
__________________
“Our life is what our thoughts make it.”
― Marcus Aurelius

Slacker's Art Website.
SlackerBabbath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 09:20 AM   #118
Atomic_Assault
Registered User
 
Atomic_Assault's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerBabbath
That's true, but some denominations, such as the Jehovah's Witnesses for example, visit you at your own home and their members tend to relish a debate.

There's actualy a Witness centre (known as a Kindom Hall) just around the corner from my house and it's members quite regularly walk up my street knocking on doors. It used to be that the elder members would knock on my door, until I convinced one of them that evolution could possibly exist as a tool of God's creation and that the two don't necessarily have to contradict each other, ever since then, it's only been the younger 'trainees' that knock on my door.

I'm sure they get sent to my house as a training exercise.


I would genuinely pay money to see this.

As somebody with more than a passing interest in archaeology, your posts have been a thoroughly enjoyable read, as they often are, of course.
Atomic_Assault is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 09:28 AM   #119
SlackerBabbath
Est. 1966.
 
SlackerBabbath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Burnley, UK
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomic_Assault
I would genuinely pay money to see this.

My partner hates it and she generaly calls me a 'cruel bastard' after they walk away wondering about their faith. But hey, I didn't ask them to knock on my door and try to convert me.

The Mormons are quite fun too. Especially when you show them the evidence for their founder 'Joseph Smith' being a con-man.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomic_Assault
As somebody with more than a passing interest in archaeology, your posts have been a thoroughly enjoyable read, as they often are, of course.

Glad you enjoyed it.

Personaly, I see little sense in studying ancient religions and myths without studying the archeology of the cultures that developed them.
__________________
“Our life is what our thoughts make it.”
― Marcus Aurelius

Slacker's Art Website.

Last edited by SlackerBabbath : 10-16-2012 at 09:39 AM.
SlackerBabbath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 09:43 AM   #120
Ninja#117
Registered User
 
Ninja#117's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Jacksonville, FLorida
Quote:
Originally Posted by Casketcreep
Ninja this may come as a surprise to you, but churchs don't really open the floor for debate. That would be horribly detrimental to the entire organisation.


casket this may come as a suprise to you but i know that.
__________________
Knowledge is power
Ninja#117 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:37 PM.

Forum Archives / About / Terms of Use / Advertise / Contact / Ultimate-Guitar.Com © 2014
Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.