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Old 10-28-2012, 10:47 PM   #141
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Umm. I'm Jesus, and like, my Dad works in like super wack ways bro, so it's like, total bullshit, but ya know, with enough faith it makes sense. Drugs don't hurt much either though.
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Old 10-28-2012, 10:49 PM   #142
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Hmmm, that's a good point. But have you ever read the Old Testament?
He may as well have wrote it.
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Old 10-29-2012, 03:59 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by ron666
Hmmm, that's a good point. But have you ever read the Old Testament?

Read it? I've studied it and scrutinised it to an extreme degree.
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Originally Posted by ron666
God seems like an angry vengeful type of god, but in the New Testament, he suddenly becomes a loving God. It is probably the same God, but our interpretation of His intentions has probably changed from one to the other.

That is probably one possibility, but there might be others.

ron666

According to Christian doctrine, it is the same God, only the events in New Testament brought about a New Covenant in which God basicaly promises not to be an angry vengeful type of god who is always smiting sinners anymore but instead promises to be a forgiving God.

The Old Testament actualy prophecises a New Covenant.

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." (Jeremiah 31:31–34)

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He may as well have wrote it.

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Old 10-29-2012, 10:07 PM   #144
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This is interesting stuff!
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Old 10-29-2012, 10:23 PM   #145
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idk about you but i think that the "forbidden fruit' was just eves vagina and the "serpent" was just adams dick. i dont think its any more complicated than that.
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Old 10-30-2012, 12:43 AM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ron666
Hmmm, that's a good point. But have you ever read the Old Testament? God seems like an angry vengeful type of god, but in the New Testament, he suddenly becomes a loving God. It is probably the same God, but our interpretation of His intentions has probably changed from one to the other.

That is probably one possibility, but there might be others.

ron666

The only way that would make sense is if you reinterpret the actions of Yahweh in the Old Testament in a loving light, since Yahweh himself says he is unchanging. And I don't see how you could interpret ordering the wholesale slaughter of entire cities to be loving in any regard.

This does remind me of an interesting early Christian thinker named Marcion who developed a different Christian theology in the 2nd Century from the orthodoxy that is professed today. The modern conception of Jesus and Christianity hasn't always been the only view, there have been several interpretations of what "true" Christian beliefs were in its early history. Marcionite Christianity was just one of a few.
Marcion believed that the god of the Old Testament, the original Creator of the world, was an evil god who was in opposition to the god of Jesus. Marcion preached a theology that included two gods: the tribal God of the Jews and the God of Jesus. This, for him, explained the contrast and contradictions between the vengeful, punishing god of Moses and the merciful, loving god of the teachings of Jesus. Jesus was actually meant to be the world's savior from this god.

Of course Marcion also didn't believe Jesus to be at all human, but that he was fully divine and only appeared to have human qualities. That makes his theology very incompatible with modern Christian teaching. I thought you might find some interest in Marcion since you do clearly realize some of the contention between the Old and New Testaments.
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Old 10-30-2012, 12:49 AM   #147
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I liked Anne Rices story of the devil that once was an angel who critizised gods plan of evolution and got banned to earth/hell. God gave him the task to help the lost and confused souls of the dead to accept what happened and get into heaven.

So god and satan is just the same breed :p


I'm against religions but some stories about all that crap are pretty cool


But that's not Anne Rice, that's Paradise Lost.
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Old 10-30-2012, 12:53 AM   #148
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Old 10-30-2012, 12:58 AM   #149
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I'm not the hardcore Christian I used to be, but the Christian answer to TS' question is that God is selflessness and love and Satan is selfishness, and therefore the difference between a divine miracle and a demonic one is that a divine miracle will serve a loving, selfless purpose.
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Old 10-30-2012, 06:54 AM   #150
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No such thing as miracles.
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Old 10-30-2012, 07:36 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Tonganation
The only way that would make sense is if you reinterpret the actions of Yahweh in the Old Testament in a loving light, since Yahweh himself says he is unchanging. And I don't see how you could interpret ordering the wholesale slaughter of entire cities to be loving in any regard.

This does remind me of an interesting early Christian thinker named Marcion who developed a different Christian theology in the 2nd Century from the orthodoxy that is professed today. The modern conception of Jesus and Christianity hasn't always been the only view, there have been several interpretations of what "true" Christian beliefs were in its early history. Marcionite Christianity was just one of a few.
Marcion believed that the god of the Old Testament, the original Creator of the world, was an evil god who was in opposition to the god of Jesus. Marcion preached a theology that included two gods: the tribal God of the Jews and the God of Jesus. This, for him, explained the contrast and contradictions between the vengeful, punishing god of Moses and the merciful, loving god of the teachings of Jesus. Jesus was actually meant to be the world's savior from this god.

Of course Marcion also didn't believe Jesus to be at all human, but that he was fully divine and only appeared to have human qualities. That makes his theology very incompatible with modern Christian teaching. I thought you might find some interest in Marcion since you do clearly realize some of the contention between the Old and New Testaments.


Marcion's thoughts were probably related to Zurvanism, which was a (now extinct) dualistic branch of the ancient Persian religion 'Zoroastrianism'. Most scholars believe Zoroastrianism strongly influenced Judaism, which, as we know, Christianity developed from.
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Old 10-30-2012, 07:54 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by triglide5
No such thing as miracles.


Ahhh but why not label epic things that happen as miracles?

Wait, then wouldn't that be a miracle?
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Old 10-30-2012, 08:12 AM   #153
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Ahhh but why not label epic things that happen as miracles?

We often do.
Although the general definition of a miracle is an event attributed to divine intervention, in casual usage a miracle is often defined as any event that is statistically unlikely but beneficial.
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Old 10-30-2012, 01:14 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by SlackerBabbath
Marcion's thoughts were probably related to Zurvanism, which was a (now extinct) dualistic branch of the ancient Persian religion 'Zoroastrianism'. Most scholars believe Zoroastrianism strongly influenced Judaism, which, as we know, Christianity developed from.

Huh, I've never heard that before, but the connection makes sense. Didn't Zoroastrianism inolve something like a conflict between light and darkness similar to the Manichaean beliefs? I'm probably wrong, I don't know much about Zoroastrianism.
I've been reading Bart Ehrman's textbook on the New Testament and it didn't say anything about Zoroatrianism in relation to Marcion. It did say Marcion wrote his own gospel based off of the Gospel of Luke and that he believed Paul was the true interpretor of Jesus.
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Old 10-30-2012, 01:50 PM   #155
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I love reading the arguments in here. All of it is pointless (due to being based in bullshit religious garbage) but still good information and good to see people still wage wars with words and not just steel.
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Old 10-30-2012, 01:58 PM   #156
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You just hit the nail squarely on the head. Y'see, several of the prophets contradict each other and, as we've seen, even themselves, (such as Moses telling the Israelites that God doesn't want them to kill, then ordering them to kill the Canaanites in God's name) so how can we possibly tell which prophet, if any, is accurately depicting God's wishes? By definition, the omnipotent, omnipresent and omniescent Abrahamic God is supposedly so much more advanced than us or any other god that we have depicted that humans attempting to understand anything about him at all would be akin to the average bacterium attempting to understand ourselves.

In comparison, Zeus and the rest of the Greek gods, and other polytheistic pantheons too, are much easier for us to understand because they are basicaly depicted as human-like gods with human egos, desires, squabbles, ect. If they contradict themselves it's understandable because they have human-like flaws of character, but if the Abrahamic God appears to be contradicting himself, then we have to consider that the sources of information we have about him are themselves flawed, which then leads us to consider that it's possible that nothing that has been said about God by the prophets is actualy accurate.

Remember, in a court of law, when a witness contradicts themselves, or if their evidence is discovered to be flawed in any other way, they are often considered as an 'unreliable witness' and their testimony is often deemed as untrustable and inadmissible. Should we treat the prophets any differently?


Sometimes i finish reading these posts and find myself staring into the distance without noticing.
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Old 10-30-2012, 06:22 PM   #157
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I love reading the arguments in here. All of it is pointless (due to being based in bullshit religious garbage) but still good information and good to see people still wage wars with words and not just steel.


It's all very fascinating though, even if it isn't true. Many people are enamored by stories from Greek mythology and other mythological stories even though a vast majority of people don't believe them as truth any longer. I wouldn't say discussing such stories is pointless. I like to try to understand what the beliefs of ancient peoples were because it informs our understanding of history and how they have affected the religious ideals of today. And because there are many perspectives on what these beliefs were and what influence it had in history you often need to argue.

Plus, since the majority of people are still religious, arguing about theology or whatever can be important if you actually do manage to change someone's mind.
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Old 10-30-2012, 06:36 PM   #158
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My basic gripe with most arguments from religions are they (1) have to make assumptions (2) to make arguments (3) against their assumptions (4) and counter arguments (5) forming conclusions (6) which they find self evident (7) if you followed their assumptions (8) which had no initial validity (9) and which at the outset were preposterous (10) if not outright moral fables for children.
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Old 10-30-2012, 06:42 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by rockingamer2
God does it: miracle

Anyone else: Witchcraft/devil work

Yeah. Healing through the divine power of God: Miracle
Reiki: OMFG NO PAGAN WITCHCRAFT HINDI SHIT! BAD!

End of the day? Same result.
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Old 10-30-2012, 08:14 PM   #160
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If God is omniscient, then we have no free will. If we have no free will, we are not responsible for our actions. If God puts us in hell for our actions, he has put us in hell even though we don't deserve it. Therefore, if God is omniscient and the mainstream Christian theology is correct, he is evil.
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