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View Poll Results: The Pit's generally...
...Intelligent 67 30.18%
...Average 93 41.89%
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Old 10-13-2012, 11:49 AM   #161
slapsymcdougal
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Originally Posted by Neo Evil11
I thought England and the USA only have "universities"

Nope.
Tertiary education in the UK includes further education as well as higher education.
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Old 10-13-2012, 11:50 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by slapsymcdougal
Nope.
Tertiary education in the UK includes further education as well as higher education.


Yeah but then it's really weird if 40% would go to University?
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Old 10-13-2012, 11:52 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by Neo Evil11
Yeah but then it's really weird if 40% would go to University?

Well, it would appear that a few things that wouldn't be classed as university in Holland are university courses in the UK, like physiotherapy, dietetics, nursing, radiography and stuff.
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Old 10-13-2012, 11:53 AM   #164
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I won't stick my neck out by saying you guys are smart but the level of arguments here are far more refined than any other entertainment forum I generally frequent, which is mostly brain drivel. I'd probably say that the pit is far more knowledgeable than the general population.

(I know that isn't saying much)

@Neo_Evil Quality of tertiary institution also counts. In Australia, it's possible to get into uni just by writing something tangentially related to the exam, though no one really treats that as an achievement

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Old 10-13-2012, 11:54 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by slapsymcdougal
Well, it would appear that a few things that wouldn't be classed as university in Holland are university courses in the UK, like physiotherapy, dietetics, nursing, radiography and stuff.


Yeah that's HBO. Although with the Bachelor and Master programs, these institutes now try to call themselves Universities too. If that goes through that would be a disaster for real universities if the BSc degrees are suddenly the same as those of the less intelligent people.
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Old 10-13-2012, 12:00 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by Neo Evil11
Yeah that's HBO. Although with the Bachelor and Master programs, these institutes now try to call themselves Universities too. If that goes through that would be a disaster for real universities if the BSc degrees are suddenly the same as those of the less intelligent people.
jakey institutions are always known, it's just the people who graduate from those who think it's academic snobbery to refer to, for example, Glasgow Caledonian University as an overdressed hairdressing polytechnic.
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Old 10-13-2012, 04:06 PM   #167
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I wish I could change my answer to stupid after reading a few recent posts :|
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Old 10-14-2012, 06:02 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by slapsymcdougal
Possibly.
However, is it not also possible that previous generations have had similar intellectual potential, but that more people are now able to realise more of that potential due to increased availability and duration of education?

Depends what you mean by 'intellectual potential' really. Are there really people who are naturaly intelligent or is it more down to how and what they are taught? It's a nature 'v' nurture thing.

Take art for example, there are so many people who claim that you need natural talent in order to be a competant artist, but personaly I consider that to be complete bullshit, practicaly anyone can paint pictures to quite a high standard, all they need is to be taught the techniques in a way that they understand. To me, it's exactly the same thing as reading and writing, we don't consider that people need to be naturaly talented in order to be able to read and write, practicaly everyone can read and write in today's world, they just need to be taught how to do it.

I think intelligence can be similar, I think that it's not particularly what you start off with, although that is important to a certain extent, it's more about what you do with it that defines how intelligent you become. To me, intelligence is mainly about the nurture.

I also think that the point where nature comes into it is to do with the way that a person needs to be taught in order to reach their true intelligence potential. In that respect, everyone varies. One teaching technique will work great for one pupil but not for another. But that doesn't make one pupil more intelligent than the other, they could probably both reach the same potential if their personaly ideal way of being taught can be found.
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Old 10-14-2012, 06:12 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by SlackerBabbath
Depends what you mean by 'intellectual potential' really. Are there really people who are naturaly intelligent or is it more down to how and what they are taught? It's a nature 'v' nurture thing.

Take art for example, there are so many people who claim that you need natural talent in order to be a competant artist, but personaly I consider that to be complete bullshit, practicaly anyone can paint pictures to quite a high standard, all they need is to be taught the techniques in a way that they understand. To me, it's exactly the same thing as reading and writing, we don't consider that people need to be naturaly talented in order to be able to read and write, practicaly everyone can read and write in today's world, they just need to be taught how to do it.

I think intelligence can be similar, I think that it's not particularly what you start off with, although that is important to a certain extent, it's more about what you do with it that defines how intelligent you become. To me, intelligence is mainly about the nurture.

I also think that the point where nature comes into it is to do with the way that a person needs to be taught in order to reach their true intelligence potential. In that respect, everyone varies. One teaching technique will work great for one pupil but not for another. But that doesn't make one pupil more intelligent than the other, they could probably both reach the same potential if their personaly ideal way of being taught can be found.

no matter whar you do, you can't teach me to make a decent painting man. Whereas I think that someone of a lower intelligence will not so easily do better than me in school. Certainly nurture is very important, but nature defines how easy you learn and your maximum potential. But this debate hasnt been settled and we can't do that here either lol.
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Old 10-14-2012, 06:42 AM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo Evil11
no matter whar you do, you can't teach me to make a decent painting man. Whereas I think that someone of a lower intelligence will not so easily do better than me in school. Certainly nurture is very important, but nature defines how easy you learn and your maximum potential. But this debate hasnt been settled and we can't do that here either lol.



Effort is a much better predictor of academic attainment than intellectual ability.
Obviously, it's necessary to have a minimum of both, but assuming average IQ and incredible diligence, odds are they will succeed more than someone with above average intelligence and **** all discipline. I especially relate to the latter.

I'll try to find a source if I can, I know I have a book somewhere that cites some studies.
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Originally Posted by SlackerBabbath
there are so many people who claim that you need natural talent in order to be a competant artist, but personaly I consider that to be complete bullshit, practicaly anyone can paint pictures to quite a high standard, all they need is to be taught the techniques in a way that they understand.


Yep. A study was done where students of music were studied, and the findings were that the only factor that distinguished the elite students from the least 'talented' was the amount of time invested, and the nature and structure of their practice.

There's a concept of 'deliberate practice' that is defined as such:

Quote:
Deliberate practice refers to a form of training that consists of focused, gruelling, repetitive practice in which the subject continuously monitors his or her performance, and subsequently corrects, experiments, and reacts to immediate and constant feedback, with the aim of steady and consistent improvement. It is generally accepted that this form of training calls for approximately 10,000 hours of concentrated effort if one is to achieve the optimum level of expertise. It also means that students must receive rapid and instantaneous feedback on results. The technique is based on research conducted by Anders Ericsson.


So, effort and carefully tailored practice schedules are far more important, generally speaking, than vague traits considered innate such as 'intelligence' and 'talent'.
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Old 10-14-2012, 06:44 AM   #171
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Extremely average. If you were to map out a graph of the population of the pit vs intelligence, it would be a nice bell curve.
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Old 10-14-2012, 06:54 AM   #172
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circlejerk for morons

if i wasnt amused i wouldnt stick around <3
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Old 10-14-2012, 06:56 AM   #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo Evil11
no matter whar you do, you can't teach me to make a decent painting man.

I'd be willing to bet £1000 that I can. If I could teach you, on a one to one personal basis (not over the internet) I could definately show you the techniques of painting and in hardly any time have you painting a pretty convincing landscape.

Put it this way, I taught my daughter how to paint at 10 years of age, in one single afternoon, she went from someone who really didn't have a clue where to even start to someone who had just painted a landscape that featured a canal surrounded by vegetation at sunset... that painting was recently considered as good enough to be placed in a local gallery with quite a decent price tag on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo Evil11
Whereas I think that someone of a lower intelligence will not so easily do better than me in school. Certainly nurture is very important, but nature defines how easy you learn and your maximum potential.

I disagree, I think that nature defines the way in which we need to be taught in order to reach our maximum potential, but not necessarily the limit of our potential. (that said, obviously it does in certain respects, people who are born with abnormal brain deficiencies for example) While many will get advantage from being taught a certain 'standard' way, many others need to be shown from a slightly different angle before they 'get it' in the same way as the others do.

Take me for example, all through school, I just couldn't get the hang of fractions, our teacher went over them again and again on the blackboard, showing the standard techniques for adding them together or for subtracting them from each other, but it just wouldn't gell for me, no matter how hard I tried I just couldn't understand them and I still didn't understand them when I left school, which really didn't seem to matter very much at the time because the whole country had supposedly converted to metric, but when I started work I found that in many places, (including the factory that I had just got a job in) it was all still imperial measurements with feet, inches and fractions.

Guess what? It took my first gaffer 5 minutes with the marks on an imperial tape measure to make me fully understand fractions. He just showed me in very basic terms how they work, the penny dropped for me and suddenly I understood what they were all about.

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Originally Posted by Neo Evil11
But this debate hasnt been settled and we can't do that here either lol.
Agreed.
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Old 10-14-2012, 07:11 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by SlackerBabbath
Take me for example, all through school, I just couldn't get the hang of fractions, our teacher went over them again and again on the blackboard, showing the standard techniques for adding them together or for subtracting them from each other, but it just wouldn't gell for me, no matter how hard I tried I just couldn't understand them and I still didn't understand them when I left school, which really didn't seem to matter very much at the time because the whole country had supposedly converted to metric, but when I started work I found that in many places, (including the factory that I had just got a job in) it was all still imperial measurements with feet, inches and fractions.

i agree. i didn't understand fractions very well throughout GCSE exams (as well as other areas of maths too), but once i was taught it in the way that fractions are 'the number of times the denominator fits into the numerator', i instantly got it. with the same amount of work, i got an A in the AS level and a B in the GCSE. i too think that nature just determines the way in which we learn best.
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Old 10-14-2012, 07:23 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by SlackerBabbath
I'd be willing to bet £1000 that I can. If I could teach you, on a one to one personal basis (not over the internet) I could definately show you the techniques of painting and in hardly any time have you painting a pretty convincing landscape.

Put it this way, I taught my daughter how to paint at 10 years of age, in one single afternoon, she went from someone who really didn't have a clue where to even start to someone who had just painted a landscape that featured a canal surrounded by vegetation at sunset... that painting was recently considered as good enough to be placed in a local gallery with quite a decent price tag on it.


Here's the thing where I think there's the division between nature and nurture. I am sure you can be a very good teacher, the thing is my hands are just completely useless. I can barely write readable, no matter how hard I try. I can't made straight lines, curved lines whatever, it's all wobbly with wrong proportions. So I don't believe no matter how good you explain to me how to paint, I simply won't be able to. Whereas my sister practically makes a second living next to her work by making drawings, cards etc. for people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerBabbath
I disagree, I think that nature defines the way in which we need to be taught in order to reach our maximum potential, but not necessarily the limit of our potential. (that said, obviously it does in certain respects, people who are born with abnormal brain deficiencies for example) While many will get advantage from being taught a certain 'standard' way, many others need to be shown from a slightly different angle before they 'get it' in the same way as the others do.

Take me for example, all through school, I just couldn't get the hang of fractions, our teacher went over them again and again on the blackboard, showing the standard techniques for adding them together or for subtracting them from each other, but it just wouldn't gell for me, no matter how hard I tried I just couldn't understand them and I still didn't understand them when I left school, which really didn't seem to matter very much at the time because the whole country had supposedly converted to metric, but when I started work I found that in many places, (including the factory that I had just got a job in) it was all still imperial measurements with feet, inches and fractions.

Guess what? It took my first gaffer 5 minutes with the marks on an imperial tape measure to make me fully understand fractions. He just showed me in very basic terms how they work, the penny dropped for me and suddenly I understood what they were all about.

Agreed.
I agree with the fact that nurture/the way they teach you, is very important. I am just saying that some people simply don't get some stuff, or take so much longer to grasp it, even using their preferred method, that they cannot attain the level of "the smarter" ones in 6 years of education. I think some people just have a talent for something. Sure it goes with a certain standard of efford, but saying someone with an IQ of 100 can get a magna cum laude degree in technical mathematics, seems just silly to me. You need a certain talent in the subject to achieve a high standard in it.
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Old 10-14-2012, 07:53 AM   #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo Evil11
Here's the thing where I think there's the division between nature and nurture. I am sure you can be a very good teacher, the thing is my hands are just completely useless. I can barely write readable, no matter how hard I try. I can't made straight lines, curved lines whatever, it's all wobbly with wrong proportions.

Believe it or not, having shaky or wobbly hands is perfect for painting twisted gnarly trees. Also, there are practicaly no straight lines in nature, so landscapes don't usualy require them.

Also, I too have shaky hands, ( a result of a lifetime of partying) I also write in an almost illegible manner, I also cannot draw a straight line, I also used to draw out of proportion, until I learned the techniques to help me to draw in proportion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo Evil11
So I don't believe no matter how good you explain to me how to paint, I simply won't be able to. Whereas my sister practically makes a second living next to her work by making drawings, cards etc. for people.

I'm that convinced that I could get a result from you, I'll up my bet to £5000.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo Evil11
I agree with the fact that nurture/the way they teach you, is very important. I am just saying that some people simply don't get some stuff, or take so much longer to grasp it, even using their preferred method, that they cannot attain the level of "the smarter" ones in 6 years of education.


But how do you know what a person's 'preferred method' is? Until a person finds a way to learn something that places them within the same level as the standard, I wouldn't exactly call it a 'preferred method'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo Evil11
I think some people just have a talent for something. Sure it goes with a certain standard of efford, but saying someone with an IQ of 100 can get a magna cum laude degree in technical mathematics, seems just silly to me. You need a certain talent in the subject to achieve a high standard in it.

There's no reason why a person with a low general IQ can't have a talent for technical mathematics, ever heard of a 'savant'?
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Old 10-14-2012, 08:09 AM   #177
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oh god lmao the posts after mine just force it in hahaha
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Old 10-14-2012, 08:20 AM   #178
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oh god lmao the posts after mine just force it in hahaha


What exactly is your problem with the posts after yours?
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Old 10-14-2012, 08:25 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by SlackerBabbath
Believe it or not, having shaky or wobbly hands is perfect for painting twisted gnarly trees. Also, there are practicaly no straight lines in nature, so landscapes don't usualy require them.

Also, I too have shaky hands, ( a result of a lifetime of partying) I also write in an almost illegible manner, I also cannot draw a straight line, I also used to draw out of proportion, until I learned the techniques to help me to draw in proportion.


I'm that convinced that I could get a result from you, I'll up my bet to £5000.


If I can't paint a picasso in 1 month, I am cashing in on that 5000.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerBabbath
But how do you know what a person's 'preferred method' is? Until a person finds a way to learn something that places them within the same level as the standard, I wouldn't exactly call it a 'preferred method'.

Fair enough.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerBabbath
There's no reason why a person with a low general IQ can't have a talent for technical mathematics, ever heard of a 'savant'?

This is a bit pushing it right? It happens a lot in the pit when you post a simple statement and people are immediately bringing up loopholes and rare occurances. Just because there are some outliers, it doesn't mean that the general population can do a magna cum laude in mathematics. I know I couldn't.
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Old 10-14-2012, 08:43 AM   #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo Evil11
If I can't paint a picasso in 1 month, I am cashing in on that 5000.

This is a Picasso.

So is this.


But then... so is this too.


If I couldn't teach you to paint such a simple face on a circular piece of ceramic within a whole month, then I'd eat my easel. (and it's a big easel)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo Evil11
This is a bit pushing it right? It happens a lot in the pit when you post a simple statement and people are immediately bringing up loopholes and rare occurances. Just because there are some outliers, it doesn't mean that the general population can do a magna cum laude in mathematics. I know I couldn't.

Fair enough, I admit I was probably pushing it a bit with the savant comment, but ask yourself, what exactly is a savant? It's basicaly just a person with a neurodevelopmental disorder who just happens to fully 'get' a particular subject because they think about it in a certain way.
I maintane that if you could be taught to think about advanced mathematics in a way that simplifies it for you, then you could potentialy do a magna cum laude in mathematics.
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